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America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

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Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#21

Post by netsp »

nick-dap wrote: post #17

Two words. DREAM Act. http://dreamact.info I was brought to the United States by my parents at a very young age. In the process I have inherited the title of an "illegal immigrant" from my parents. The DREAM Act is a legislation 10 years in the making. We have thousands of enterpreneurs, scientists, engineers, nurses, doctors, talent in every field imaginable going to waste in the United States; living in the shadows…

Why are you still in the US? Does an NYU education put you in a position to immigrate somewhere?

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#22

Post by modeless »

I just can't get on board for another specialized program with more regulations. I wish we could just open the floodgates and let people in; xenophobes and protectionists be damned. If they're motivated enough to actually pick up and move here they're the kind of people we want.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#23

Post by padmapper »

_ck_ wrote: post #16

I won't even pretend to begin to understand the politics behind all this but I am confused - in a nation of over 300 MILLION people, we don't have enough skilled workers? Seriously? I'm not against immigration at all if people want a better life and they somehow believe it's here, but we also have double digit unemployment. I'm definitely missing part of the picture.

There are 300 million people in the US, but in the very specific specialties at the cutting edge of science and tech, every person is significant, and can't really be substituted for by another.

Letting in the best of the best is all kinds of win. See "Brain Drain/Gain": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain

Albert Einstein is one of the more famous examples, but there are quite a few others.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#24

Post by nick-dap »

netsp wrote: post #21
nick-dap wrote: post #17

Two words. DREAM Act. http://dreamact.info I was brought to the United States by my parents at a very young age. In the process I have inherited the title of an "illegal immigrant" from my parents. The DREAM Act is a legislation 10 years in the making. We have thousands of enterpreneurs, scientists, engineers, nurses, doctors, talent in every field imaginable going to waste in the United States; living in the shadows…

Why are you still in the US? Does an NYU education put you in a position to immigrate somewhere?

There is a 10 year ban on applying for any visa once you leave. My family, friends, and home are all here. I have no one where my parents came from. Leaving turns into a 20 year ordeal to see them again. Would you do it? Would you do it at 23?

In general, going somewhere else is not possible at all for many. Before one can go somewhere else he has to go back to his country of citizenship. Often thats simply not possible. Yet another case are stateless individuals who have nowhere to go period.

Even if you ignore all the human rights issues and look at the problem from an economically pragmatic point of view, it doesn't make any sense to maintain the status quo. Why should educated and obviously needed Americans be forced out of their homes and shipped out? To "not encourage illegal immigration in the future." Thats the argument I hear. Am I supposed to be a casualty of a political statement? I don't feel anything but American, so the people who wage the "cultural war" for votes and ratings can go ___ themselves. I'm fighting for my rights.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#25

Post by netsp »

nick-dap wrote: post #24
netsp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you still in the US? Does an NYU education put you in a position to immigrate somewhere?

There is a 10 year ban on applying for any visa once you leave. My family, friends, and home are all here. I have no one where my parents came from. Leaving turns into a 20 year ordeal to see them again. Would you do it? Would you do it at 23? In general, going somewhere else is not possible at all for many. Before one can go somewhere else he has to go back to his country of citizenship. Often thats simply not possi…

It seems that you have a good grasp of the reasons put forward against giving you citizenship. A lot of them boil down to rule of law arguments of some sort avoiding arbitrary rules that let you cherry pick the people you want (educated, productive, culturally American, etc.).

Maintaining the ability to keep people out when they want in requires cruelty. The tighter you want to keep the control, the crueller. The more they want in, the crueller. If you want to really really close a border, you need to be willing to kill people.

Have you ever considered going in to some sort of open battle about this. You're educated. It seems like you have the ability to articulate your position well. You would be able to gain empathy from Americans who will see you as an American under threat of deportation. Are there any support/advice channels for illegal immigrants in the NY?

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#26

Post by nick-dap »

netsp wrote: post #20
nick-dap wrote: post #17

Two words. DREAM Act. http://dreamact.info I was brought to the United States by my parents at a very young age. In the process I have inherited the title of an "illegal immigrant" from my parents. The DREAM Act is a legislation 10 years in the making. We have thousands of enterpreneurs, scientists, engineers, nurses, doctors, talent in every field imaginable going to waste in the United States; living in the shadows…

To expand on what you are talking about: The solution to the problems caused by restrictions on immigration is less restrictions on immigration. A super specialised policy/visa designed to milk some of the meatiest benefits from immigration is an ugly hack.

I honestly don't know if thats the case. It is not unreasonable to demand from Congress that they pass multiple legislations that address an area as complex as immigration (or healthcare for that matter).

We are eagerly following the all encompassing reforms, while what we actually need is for Congress to make legislation continuously. Who would have thought that this was their job? Instead we make a big deal about big legislations and watch senators flip charts and push rhetoric while working deals behind closed doors.

When advocating for manageable legislation with a whole lot of support and little floor time I've personally heard: "We cannot do it now, because we do not have the White House." "We cannot do it now because we don't have the majority in the Senate." "We cannot do it now because we dont have the 60 vote super majority." "We cannot do it now because its just not the right political atmosphere." This Fall, if health care fails, they'll have a perfect excuse not to touch immigration with a 10 foot pole. "We cannot do it now, because obviously it wouldn't pass, look at health care."

My personal favorite "It takes so much political capital to pass any immigration bill that legislators need to do it all at once and then not touch it for another 20 years." Ironically, that one comes from reform advocates. My personal favorite response to that was by Robert Kerrey (a former Senator, President of New School in New York) - "I got news for you, Congress comes back every year."

In geek terms. Why not iterate and see what works? What we have, obviously doesn't. Any legislation that we come up with today is almost guaranteed not to work in 5 to 10 years.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#27

Post by netsp »

nick-dap wrote: post #26
netsp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To expand on what you are talking about: The solution to the problems caused by restrictions on immigration is less restrictions on immigration. A super specialised policy/visa designed to milk some of the meatiest benefits from immigration is an ugly hack.

I honestly don't know if thats the case. It is not unreasonable to demand from Congress that they pass multiple legislations that address an area as complex as immigration (or healthcare for that matter). We are eagerly following the all encompassing reforms, while what we actually need is for Congress to make legislation continuously. Who would have thought that this was their job? Instead we make a big deal about b…

What sort of legislation relating to your personal position do you think should be passed?

I was simply making a more general point about restrictions on immigration. If you take in to account all effects including the immigrant, the destination and the country of origin, you get a terrible economic net loss. It is similar to restricting trade in goods and services.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#28

Post by jacquesm »

netsp wrote: post #25
nick-dap wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a 10 year ban on applying for any visa once you leave. My family, friends, and home are all here. I have no one where my parents came from. Leaving turns into a 20 year ordeal to see them again. Would you do it? Would you do it at 23? In general, going somewhere else is not possible at all for many. Before one can go somewhere else he has to go back to his country of citizenship. Often thats simply not possi…

It seems that you have a good grasp of the reasons put forward against giving you citizenship. A lot of them boil down to rule of law arguments of some sort avoiding arbitrary rules that let you cherry pick the people you want (educated, productive, culturally American, etc.). Maintaining the ability to keep people out when they want in requires cruelty. The tighter you want to keep the control, the crueller. The mor…

He/she might be deported, that's not a very smart thing to do.

When you're illegal somewhere your best chance is to lay low until there is some legislation that favors you.

Here in NL there was a guy from Turkey, that had started his own business. Very very successful, in fact, so successful that a newspaper decided to use him as the poster child for illegal immigrants that should get a passport.

Not that long afterwards he was deported, simply for having become 'visible'.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#29

Post by jacquesm »

joe_the_user wrote: post #18
netsp wrote: post #10

My issue with ideas like the "startup visa" is that they require restrictions and bureaucracies. You end up with more draconian restrictions on immigrants causing resentment. You end up with more distortion of market signals. What happens when a startup goes under? Visa cancelled? Well that's reason to pour more resources in or just pretend it's still alive. What happens if they do some consulting on the side to stay…

Quite a few people have mentioned Canada's skills-based system. This sounds far and away better and clearer than the unmanageable "Founder's Visa". BUT REGARDLESS, America will not be "The World's Tech Leader" with American elementary and secondary schools in the shape that they presently are in (and more multiple choice testing isn't it either..). Funny how this never gets mentioned in these "Tech Leader" debates (c…

Having been on the receiving end of Canada's 'skills based system' I can testify that it is less than perfect, to put it very mildly.

After waiting for five years for paperwork to come through we packed up and moved back to the Netherlands, I could simply not justify having my child in school with a potential culture change in case our application would get denied in the middle of his secondary education.

The Canadian system is on paper very entrepreneur friendly but in practice a lot less so.

For maximum irony, after they figured out that we really did move back to Europe and took our investment with us (as far as that was possible, some of the real estate is still up for sale even today) we got our papers within a couple of weeks. So, after we left it was no problem to give us our status, but as long as we were there there wasn't any way to get the process unstuck.

Total frustration. If you plan on moving to Canada, make sure you get your paperwork BEFORE you start anything or make any investments, no matter what the local, provincial or federal government promises you that they will do, once your negotiation position is hollowed out by your investment or move their incentive to give you any status disappears.

And make sure you apply for health care within 30 days of moving there, otherwise you are in for a world of trouble.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#30

Post by nearestneighbor »

nick-dap wrote: post #17

Two words. DREAM Act. http://dreamact.info I was brought to the United States by my parents at a very young age. In the process I have inherited the title of an "illegal immigrant" from my parents. The DREAM Act is a legislation 10 years in the making. We have thousands of enterpreneurs, scientists, engineers, nurses, doctors, talent in every field imaginable going to waste in the United States; living in the shadows…

I'm curious, how did you get in and through college (tuition, enrollment, etc.) without an ID or a bank account?

I lived in NYC myself. Besides not having to drive, is it really a better place to be for undocumented immigrants?

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