Live data from Hacker News

This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

theatlantic.com

31–40 of 96 posts

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#31
Lack of privacy seems like a good way to encourage cultural genocide. Total transparency for individuals would make it easier for prevailing thought-leaders to suppress minority groups. Culture could be eliminated before it has a chance to coalesce to the point of daring to enter public acceptance. To think otherwise is to believe that cultural tyranny (thus legal tyranny) wouldn't exist in a world where no one may hide. That's foolish. Tyranny bred in complete openness is possibly more insidious. It's harder to escape.

The author, perhaps, isn't bothered by the many reasons why other people unlike himself want privacy and have wanted privacy throughout history. Maybe the plight of others will never be good enough for him to change his advocacy. There's irony in his case. Not so long ago, and to this day in many parts of the world, revealing oneself as an atheist would have made one subject to extreme persecution, if not quicker death. It was through a long course of secrecy, over a gradual shift in public perception, which was rapidly accelerated by the soft veil of the internet, that more people began to feel safe enough to 'come out' as atheists. (Granted, that history didn't have a complete lack of privacy. Yet, if it had, I'd wager that the world today would have even fewer "heretics" upon whose shoulders others may rest their unpopular thoughts.)

Transparency should be a growing expectation people have toward all governments and institutions that wage force over people. I agree with that part.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#32
> Society would be better if no one had any secrets.

Maybe, except that because information asymmetry provides an advantage, and sometimes a huge one, there will always be an incredibly strong incentive for each individual to keep secrets. An overwhelmingly strong incentive, I posit.

Enforcing total transparency would basically require us to read everyone's thoughts.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#33

> "And having been transparent with his coreligionists about his loss of faith and with his ex-wife about his lost willingness to be monogamous, he gradually came to this life philosophy: Society would be better if no one had any secrets." Spoken like someone blessed to have been born a white heterosexual male in 21st century America. I wonder if he'd feel the same way if he was a homosexual in an incredibly homophob…

But wouldn't government have less of an advantage over you in that respect in that society than it currently has?

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#34
I can't help to think that this man's views are very short sighted.

They remind me of what happens when people decide not to lie any more. Works great in theory until you start hurting other people.

I'm still fundamentally in favour of strong privacy laws. That some choose not to exercise their rights is their own decision to make. They are however, not entitled to make these decisions for others.

A simple example of why strong protection is needed is when you have to travel to countries that, if privacy in your own country was weak, would gain access to more information than you'd want them to.

So you're a gay atheist who likes to smoke pot from time to time? Please follow this nice man with the rifle.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#35
post #23
post #20

> "secrets exist to prevent other people from acting as they would if they had complete information" And? I don't understand why the reader must assume it would be good for people to act with complete information. Privacy is required where trust is absent because people in the abstract are not responsible or empathetic enough to warrant the risk. Ask any celebrity if privacy is a barrier to equality. This isn't pessi…

Eh... I don't get it? Why is privacy required where there is no trust? I see how the two are related but I see it kind of differently... it's hard not to trust someone when you know they're not hiding anything. In a totally utopian sense I believe that privacy is bad. Practically it's probably impossible to implement society without privacy. I wouldn't share my email password because we're not living in a utopia and…

Privacy is just a cloak. Hypocrites and liars may hide behind privacy but so do journalists and pregnant women. The same is true of hammers which has been used to build dog houses and murder children.

Ultimately, I don't think getting rid of privacy will do much to hypocrisy and lies. The sharp edge of embarrassment would be dull, allowing people to behave with less care for what others think. People would still lie and behave hypocritically but they would be better at evading. The comfort afforded by privacy would be transferred to the comfort in knowing that someone would have to sift through the information to find your lies and even if they did? Well, who doesn't lie? The less privacy politicians have the less I'm convinced privacy has an affect on lying.

I do agree though that a world constructed so that privacy isn't necessary would be a utopia and I believe it's possible to some extent.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#36
post #34

I can't help to think that this man's views are very short sighted. They remind me of what happens when people decide not to lie any more. Works great in theory until you start hurting other people. I'm still fundamentally in favour of strong privacy laws. That some choose not to exercise their rights is their own decision to make. They are however, not entitled to make these decisions for others. A simple example of…

s/untitled/entitled/

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#37
post #8

Excerpt: "In most societies, we [recognize] the right of people to keep secrets. But really, there’s only one purpose for keeping secrets: secrets exist to prevent other people from acting as they would if they had complete information," Yeah, that's because most people cannot be completely trusted with your welfare. Der. They don't usually have your best interest at heart, even in cases where their intent is not spe…

> They would just get better at appearing to be ethical, which really isn't the same thing.

There's a long and hard-to-kill tradition of thought, both in the West and in other cultures, that says something along the lines of "If you try hard enough to look like you care about X for a long time, you'll end up actually caring about X."

It's the idea behind every educational system that requires students to wear uniforms: "Make them dress like ladies and gentlemen for several years, and they'll actually become ladies and gentlemen." It has also been the idea behind many state religions, both ancient and modern: "Make them participate in religious rituals from birth to death, and they'll actually come to have faith in our god(s)." What's scary is that this often works. It's an extremely powerful tool of social manipulation.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#38
The "nothing to hide" argument is fundamentally wrong just like how shedding other rights because you don't personally need them is wrong.

>I don't need a fair trial: I'm not a criminal!

>I don't need free speech: I'm not a radical!

>I don't need a free press: there's no corruption!

Just like what Orwell discussed in 1984, words such as "liberty" and "freedom" are only propagandaspeak used to rally the population behind a vague sense of patriotism. The actual concepts behind these phrases have been systematically eliminated.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#39

> "And having been transparent with his coreligionists about his loss of faith and with his ex-wife about his lost willingness to be monogamous, he gradually came to this life philosophy: Society would be better if no one had any secrets." Spoken like someone blessed to have been born a white heterosexual male in 21st century America. I wonder if he'd feel the same way if he was a homosexual in an incredibly homophob…

Similar to how violence is acceptable in defense of self and others, I think the same holds for lying or withholding information. If telling the truth risks inviting harm, it's right to lie. Since societies judge some lifestyles harshly, being less open than Dyer is perfectly ethical.

I agree that Dyer is fortunate to be able to take such an extreme position, but I do think society would be better off if we moved toward his ideal, rather than away from it.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#40
post #22

For anyone who's curious what a world in which everyone is forced to throw away their privacy and embrace complete transparency might look like, Dave Eggers wrote a fantastic book called The Circle ( http://www.amazon.com/The-Circle-Dave-Eggers/dp/0385351399 ) that explores that very concept. Highly recommended.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check that book out.

Once, in thread similar to this one, I saw another recommendation for The Light of Other Days (http://smile.amazon.com/Light-Other-Days-Arthur-Clarke-ebook.... It explores a world where everyone can see and hear everyone else at any (past and present) time. While I did not always find the plot compelling, I still enjoyed reading it because it explores some cool ideas.

Post reply on HN