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This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

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Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#21
> "And having been transparent with his coreligionists about his loss of faith and with his ex-wife about his lost willingness to be monogamous, he gradually came to this life philosophy: Society would be better if no one had any secrets."

Spoken like someone blessed to have been born a white heterosexual male in 21st century America. I wonder if he'd feel the same way if he was a homosexual in an incredibly homophobic town.

He also seems to have reversed cause and effect here. Its not necessarily asymmetrical information that gives people power, but rather power that results in asymmetrical information. There's no magic switch to reveal all information in the universe, so its going to be government thats better at keeping secrets than you in a society that expects defacto transparency. Have fun trying to prosecute the government for keeping secrets when they have every detail on your life catalogued. You can't base a life philosophy around "if everyone magically did the right thing then..."

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#22
For anyone who's curious what a world in which everyone is forced to throw away their privacy and embrace complete transparency might look like, Dave Eggers wrote a fantastic book called The Circle (http://www.amazon.com/The-Circle-Dave-Eggers/dp/0385351399) that explores that very concept. Highly recommended.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#23
post #20

> "secrets exist to prevent other people from acting as they would if they had complete information" And? I don't understand why the reader must assume it would be good for people to act with complete information. Privacy is required where trust is absent because people in the abstract are not responsible or empathetic enough to warrant the risk. Ask any celebrity if privacy is a barrier to equality. This isn't pessi…

Eh... I don't get it? Why is privacy required where there is no trust? I see how the two are related but I see it kind of differently... it's hard not to trust someone when you know they're not hiding anything.

In a totally utopian sense I believe that privacy is bad. Practically it's probably impossible to implement society without privacy. I wouldn't share my email password because we're not living in a utopia and that information asymmetry would hurt me. However, if privacy went away social norms would have to change -- there would be a lot less hypocrisy -- and the things I'm keeping private right now wouldn't need to be private any longer.

Really privacy just facilitates lying.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#24
I totally agree with that guy, and I've been looking for likeminded people for months.

Beside social stigma, the most important barrier to living a transparent life is our reliance on secrets for identification. That includes Social Security numbers, Credit Card numbers, bank account passwords/nips, all details about physical keys and locks, etc.

You might say that public access to the above information is only a problem in conjunction with private property rights. But even if nobody owns anything, secret/public keys are currently some of the best way to identify people and track trust/reputation/opinions. Without some kind of alternative, anybody could claim anything in my name. That's problematic.

We need a way to accurately track and identify people, without the need to rely on secrets. Beside having billions of independent cameras/trackers everywhere and cross-validate their measurements, I don't know how we're going to achieve that.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#25

I totally agree with that guy, and I've been looking for likeminded people for months. Beside social stigma, the most important barrier to living a transparent life is our reliance on secrets for identification. That includes Social Security numbers, Credit Card numbers, bank account passwords/nips, all details about physical keys and locks, etc. You might say that public access to the above information is only a pro…

I could not agree more; I feel the same way.

It always makes me shudder when banks or other supposedly high security institutions ask me to provide the answer to "What city were you born in?" for extra security. I don't want to have to guard that secret, because it's not. Just an example.

I feel that in a world with perfect transparency we wouldn't have to worry about things. If someone tried to impersonate you or steal your money, _they_ would get into trouble because it'd be public knowledge what they did.

It's just much easier to rely on things being okay because everyone knows everything, rather than because everyone doesn't know certain things.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#26

> "And having been transparent with his coreligionists about his loss of faith and with his ex-wife about his lost willingness to be monogamous, he gradually came to this life philosophy: Society would be better if no one had any secrets." Spoken like someone blessed to have been born a white heterosexual male in 21st century America. I wonder if he'd feel the same way if he was a homosexual in an incredibly homophob…

Power can be used to obtain asymmetrical information,

However, asymmetrical information can also directly be used to obtain Power. (The simplest example is blackmail).

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#27
post #15
post #6

New technologies like Google Glass are going to make this guy's dream a reality. I suspect people with glass will behave differently when wearing them than when not.

I think you're overestimating the effect of Glass, since taking pictures and recording video is still a conscious decision. (Except when someone publishes the inevitable life-blogging app that captures a shot every few minutes. Even then sharing with the public (via Google) is still a conscious decision - sharing with Google & the NSA isn't of course. Luckily batteries are still a limiting factor.)

True, but I can see the trend. Maybe 10 generations of glass later, when the glass/smartphone/tricorder device is ubiquitous, we'll see memes happen in society similar to the OPs feelings of 'share everything'.

But maybe not. Maybe we'll get videos of people dumping water buckets on themselves.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#28
post #26

> "And having been transparent with his coreligionists about his loss of faith and with his ex-wife about his lost willingness to be monogamous, he gradually came to this life philosophy: Society would be better if no one had any secrets." Spoken like someone blessed to have been born a white heterosexual male in 21st century America. I wonder if he'd feel the same way if he was a homosexual in an incredibly homophob…

Power can be used to obtain asymmetrical information, However, asymmetrical information can also directly be used to obtain Power. (The simplest example is blackmail).

No, no, no, both of you are doing it wrong.

Asymmetrical possession of information is power. They're not cause and effect, they are the same thing.

Remember the dude who said knowledge === power? He really meant "===", not "if A then B," and not even "==" (if you use certain dynamically typed languages).

So what this guy is really saying is that he's okay with other people having unlimited power over him, so long as everyone has similarly unlimited power over everyone else, since they'll all hopefully cancel each other out. He's not just talking about the future of privacy, he's talking about the future of power. I suppose it's going to be a rather suffocating world, but at least all the animals in the farm might finally have a chance to be equal. Gotta give him credit for coming up with one of the more imaginative ways to achieve equality.

Thanks, but I'd rather live in a world where everyone has equally limited power over everyone else.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#29
It's an impressive story, but there is a notable difference between sending your details to a person you know the name of, who you can directly implore not to be a bastard, and just opening things up completely. This is noted in the article near the end: "In fairness, Dyer hardly shared his private communications with the whole world.".

We already know from other experiences that public display of financial account numbers results in bad actors taking advantage of them (eg Jeremy Clarkson's stunt, or the disaster relief credit card pictured in a story on Hurricane Katrina). One chosen individual is unlikely to be a bad actor. The general public does however contain them - opening up to one individual is quite different to a wide demographic.

Re: This Man Has Nothing to Hide – Not Even His Email Password

#30
post #23
post #20

> "secrets exist to prevent other people from acting as they would if they had complete information" And? I don't understand why the reader must assume it would be good for people to act with complete information. Privacy is required where trust is absent because people in the abstract are not responsible or empathetic enough to warrant the risk. Ask any celebrity if privacy is a barrier to equality. This isn't pessi…

Eh... I don't get it? Why is privacy required where there is no trust? I see how the two are related but I see it kind of differently... it's hard not to trust someone when you know they're not hiding anything. In a totally utopian sense I believe that privacy is bad. Practically it's probably impossible to implement society without privacy. I wouldn't share my email password because we're not living in a utopia and…

In a strange sense, in particular when reading the article, I'm reminded of a certain Orwellian utopia in which there was virtually no extant privacy.

Maybe it "facilitates lying," although I think that's a rather extremist view, but if there's information I'm not willing to provide you, I may not necessarily be lying--I just don't feel that it's pertinent or necessary for you to know. Or in particularly pathological cases, I've simply forgotten, so neither of us will be privy to information that has been lost or destroyed. It's just unfortunate that it seems in this case, "lying" has been stretched to mean "lack of information or imperfect information" rather than "a statement which is not factual truth." That's not an argument I agree with.

Likewise, I'm not so sure a privacy-less world would be, or bring about, utopia. At least, thusfar, I haven't read anything that has convinced me. Yes, I'm sure part of it is due to my own experiences in our world where privacy is a norm, but I'm not sure I completely buy into the belief that privacy facilitates all of these ills spoken about in TFA (or by yourself or other commenters). For one, there will always be actors with malevolent intentions--eliminating privacy for all individuals is unlikely to change that fact.

Groupthink also comes to mind wherein opposing opinions are punished by way of mob justice. I could foresee a world where a lack of privacy encourages homogenous public opinion, either because those who might be inclined to disagree fear embarrassment or punishment.

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