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Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

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Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#191

Post by Perseids »

lotharbot wrote: post #172
Someone1234 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then people are "increasingly" using it incorrectly. Europe is a continent, the EU is a political alliance. There are too many countries within Europe but not in the EU to use the terms synonymously. For example: Albania, Andorra, Belarus, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Norway, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Switzerland, Turkey, Ukraine, Vatican City I think…

> "people are using the down arrow as a "I disagree" button.." http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171 "I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. Obviously the uparrows aren't only for applauding politeness, so it seems reasonable that the downarrows aren't only for booing rudeness." - pg, 2382 days ago http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347 "Downvoting has always been used to express…

> FWIW I did not downvote you in this thread (I actually upvoted you.) I'm just informing you of the principle -- downvote for disagreement is totally cool on HN.

I disagree. From what I've come to expect from the voting behavior, downvotes are reserved for comments that are badly written (missing punctuation etc.), insulting or objectively false in an easily verifiable manner (like "Java does not include floating point numbers").

As far as I can overcome my personal bias I try to only upvote posts that contribute to the discussion or are greatly written and not those that only agree to my opinions. After all, having yet another echo chamber of the worldview of yet another community is way less useful than a greater diversity of ideas and ideologies. How else can we hone our arguments to make them convincing for anybody but us.

I realize I don't fall under the "older than a year" rule so let me quote the top voted comment on your first link:

> I have seen quite a few comments that were extremely insightful, and/or interesting that got downmodded due to an unpopular opinion. The reason this is unfortunate is not only that you tend to miss these (assuming that there is a higher probability that you read or think about comments that are rated higher, which I am surely not the only one that is guilty of) but also that it tends to promote groupthink . This is especially important on a forum like this where we are here to learn and share our thoughts, ideas and experiences for a very particular niche: Starting startups.

[...]

> So I think that the up and down arrows should not express agreement, but insightfullness or truth. Not opinion. That way I will be able to judge the validity of a comment in a field that I do not know well by its points. And hopefully learn something.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#192

Post by rmc »

V-2 wrote: post #181
TeMPOraL wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then people are "increasingly" using it incorrectly. Europe is a continent, the EU is a political alliance. Well, it's exactly the same as with America (the continent) and United States (a country). You can either argue that both calling EU Europe and USA America is wrong and we should stop, or accept that in both cases, people can figure things out from the context.

Yes, it's a common metonymy, but whether its use is valid or misleading for no good reason depends on the context in my opinion. If somebody said "let's hope this law spreads throughout America", you wouldn't assume they meant just the US, would you? Calling the United States "America" is often handy, but it's sort of a sloppy language all in all. Personally I rather avoid it if ambiguity is likely. People are also o…

> If somebody said "let's hope this law spreads throughout America", you wouldn't assume they meant just the US, would you?

Yes I would. Irish person here. Native English speaker.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#193

Post by rmc »

mseebach wrote: post #183
epaga wrote: post #3

Sounds like an excellent law to stop the horrid practices in so many online shops. Let's hope a form of this law spreads throughout Europe and the U.S. This caught my eye, however: "A failure to comply cancels the transaction. You can get your money back and keep the goods. If the sale was for a service or a digital download, the contract is cancelled and no further payments are due." Wow. Seems like it would make a…

> You can get your money back and keep the goods My guess is that's a journalistic misinterpretation of what canceling a transaction means. It's very common in the law that when a transaction is cancelled, not only do you have to return the product, if you've used it, the seller can make a reasonable deduction in your refund. If the consequence indeed is as stated, it's not like customers would benefit much in the lo…

> Lose all your past revenue AND your product stock overnight? That's unheard of as punishment in commercial law.

(a) Unrealist scare story: In nearly all businesses you won't have "all customers" returning things. (b) I approve of this general scare tactic to ensure businesses don't try to scam their customers.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#194

Post by moheeb »

jarrett wrote: post #135
aero142 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cleaning fees make perfect sense to me. When renting a house out, if I stay 1 night, the owner has to clean the house once. If I stay 1 week, the owner has to clean the house once. Seems like this is just matching pricing to costs.

I think most people would be OK with an additional flat fee so long as the notice is clear and conspicuous. For example, if I were renting a space daily and had to tack on a flat cleaning fee, I might write something like this: $99 per day, plus $20 flat fee In other words, you can develop whatever fee structure you want. You just have to adequately explain it to customers so they can make an informed decision.

Shouldn't the price be $119 in that case? I get bothered when someone thinks I'm dumb enough to not notice their little price increase in the form of a fee. I am not OK with that.

I would prefer to deal with honest folks that just give you the price straight away.

I only interface with assholey businesses that add fees when I have no other choice. I have no allegiance to those types of businesses. I'm thinking Delta, Southwest, every car rental place, Wells Fargo, most cell phone companies, etc.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#195

Post by rmc »

idlewords wrote: post #8

A good example of beneficial government regulation, for people who refuse to believe such a thing exists. (Another good example is the Internet itself, but it's best to start small)

It's also a good example of good EU regulation. There are many in the UK who think the EU does nothing but regulate bendy bananas. The EU brings a lot of good law for the little guy to the UK (and other EU states)

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#196

Post by rmc »

saosebastiao wrote: post #64
dzhiurgis wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they don't: * Can't get shipping charges before the last step (after selecting the credit card which implies I am about to pay) * Sneaking in Prime * Fucked up search

Nobody can give you shipping charges without knowing your address. The credit card step exists because most of the time the billing address and shipping address are the same.

I have a few addresses in my amazon account, and post to one 99% of the time. It shouldn't take a genius to figure that out.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#197

Post by rmc »

mikestew wrote: post #103
Vespasian wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I hope they will finally have to label them correctly. When I booked flights to Dublin recently, I felt being cheated on even though I checked everything twice and googled some. The insurance trick is among the worst practices I had to encounter personally. I'd prefer to have the official prices being hones even if they are somewhat higher. Their business model of offering only the minimal thing should work…

> When I booked flights to Dublin recently, I felt being cheated on even though I checked everything twice and googled some. Why on earth would you do business with a company that makes you " cheated"? RyanAir ran off all of the other airlines? They had the only flight to Dublin to see your poor, sick mother? Flights so cheap that you're willing to put up with the bullshit? It's an honest question, and I've heard som…

> Flights so cheap that you're willing to put up with the bullshit?

Yes.

I've taken ~100 Ryanair flights. It's a bus service. Buses are crap too. Ryanair, like busses, are cheap.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#198

Post by mcintyre1994 »

moheeb wrote: post #194
jarrett wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people would be OK with an additional flat fee so long as the notice is clear and conspicuous. For example, if I were renting a space daily and had to tack on a flat cleaning fee, I might write something like this: $99 per day, plus $20 flat fee In other words, you can develop whatever fee structure you want. You just have to adequately explain it to customers so they can make an informed decision.

Shouldn't the price be $119 in that case? I get bothered when someone thinks I'm dumb enough to not notice their little price increase in the form of a fee. I am not OK with that. I would prefer to deal with honest folks that just give you the price straight away. I only interface with assholey businesses that add fees when I have no other choice. I have no allegiance to those types of businesses. I'm thinking Delta,…

Shouldn't the cleaning fee only be a one time extra though? $119 for one night sure, but I'd rather pay $515 than $595 for five days. How would you add the flat fee to the nightly rate without knowing how long the stay will be?

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#199

Post by rmc »

Someone1234 wrote: post #93
seiji wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They updated it last year: "Starting December 2013, boarding card reissue fees will be cut from €70 or £70 to €15 or £15." You can see their fee schedule at: http://www.ryanair.com/en/fees/ — yes, they charge a fee to even assign you a seat. (Anecdote: I had a printed boarding pass all crumpled up at the bottom of my bag (they let you check in weeks before your flight, so it had to survive for a while) and my poorly…

> yes, they charge a fee to even assign you a seat. Everyone does that now. Delta, BA, AA, Virgin, etc. I can think of very few airlines that give you free seat selection before check-in. I don't agree with it, but it is the way things have gone for all airlines. Just like baggage fees on local flights (even though that causes mass delays during boarding since now everyone is trying to show too much into cramp overhe…

What's new is that Ryanair used to not have any assigned seats. You got onto the plane and picked a free seat. It's a good way to ensure passengers get on quickly, so that the plane can take off 25 minutes later. Wonder what the assigned seating is doing to their turnaround times.
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