Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#131

Post by TeMPOraL » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:20 PM UTC

Kalium wrote: post #129

TeMPOraL wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A good example of beneficial government regulation, for people who refuse to believe such a thing exists. I don't get how people can hold that belief. It falls apart the moment you think about game theory for five minutes, or read up a Wikipedia article about externalities and tragedy of commons.

It's amazing what personal greed and arrogance will do to ideology.

I'd say: it's amazing how ideology can shut one's mind down. But then again, isn't that written into definition of ideology?

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#132

Post by MoOmer » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:22 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #125

aero142 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cleaning fees make perfect sense to me. When renting a house out, if I stay 1 night, the owner has to clean the house once. If I stay 1 week, the owner has to clean the house once. Seems like this is just matching pricing to costs.

Cleaning fees and service fees, to me, are like delivery fees. Everyone assumes they are paying for them in the rental. And almost everyone I know uses AirBnB because it is cheaper than a hotel. But once you start adding on fees that value diminishes. The last place I rented wasn't exactly located downtown and, after all the fees, only $15/night cheaper than a hotel. Our final 2 nights we stayed at a hotel and had a…

That's not how I treat AirBnB at all; I use AirBnB to stay at a place that's not a hotel. Sometimes it ends up being a lot more expensive (i.e.: when renting out a cabin, or an on-beach room), but exactly what I want.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#133

Post by aero142 » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:24 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #94

aero142 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cleaning fees make perfect sense to me. When renting a house out, if I stay 1 night, the owner has to clean the house once. If I stay 1 week, the owner has to clean the house once. Seems like this is just matching pricing to costs.

Fine. Then announce the fixed fees upfront. Announcing "x per night, y fixed cost" is different from announcing "x per night" but then tacking in the charge for y at the last minute.

Yes, I was assuming that the cleaning fee was listed upfront. I have frequently seen these listed when booking right in the pricing section. If they aren't listed, then they are definitely unethical and I wouldn't pay it.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#134

Post by danielweber » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:25 PM UTC

techmatters wrote: post #7

"A failure to comply cancels the transaction. You can get your money back and keep the goods. If the sale was for a service or a digital download, the contract is cancelled and no further payments are due." I would think that, under contract law, you get your money back and you return the goods - that would be cancelling the transaction. Likewise for digital downloads or services. Can anyone explain why the provider…

The same reason many states say that if the grocery store accidentally overcharges you by N cents for an item, you get 10 * N cents (up to a limit) off of the marked price.

This is encouraging the consumer to engage in self-help and gives them (in theory) just enough of them the motivation to keep on the lookout for the scam.

It's not the only way to run a regulatory regime, and it has some downsides, but it also has a measure of appeal.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#135

Post by jarrett » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:30 PM UTC

aero142 wrote: post #92

yardie wrote: post #42

Hey AirBnB. I hope you're listening. Sneaking in service charges and "cleaning fees" is no bueno. I know it's not you doing the later but I hate it when I find an apartment at an appropriate price then good hoodwinked for additional services I don't particularly care for.

Cleaning fees make perfect sense to me. When renting a house out, if I stay 1 night, the owner has to clean the house once. If I stay 1 week, the owner has to clean the house once. Seems like this is just matching pricing to costs.

I think most people would be OK with an additional flat fee so long as the notice is clear and conspicuous. For example, if I were renting a space daily and had to tack on a flat cleaning fee, I might write something like this:

$99 per day, plus $20 flat fee

In other words, you can develop whatever fee structure you want. You just have to adequately explain it to customers so they can make an informed decision.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#136

Post by baddox » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:33 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #125

aero142 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cleaning fees make perfect sense to me. When renting a house out, if I stay 1 night, the owner has to clean the house once. If I stay 1 week, the owner has to clean the house once. Seems like this is just matching pricing to costs.

Cleaning fees and service fees, to me, are like delivery fees. Everyone assumes they are paying for them in the rental. And almost everyone I know uses AirBnB because it is cheaper than a hotel. But once you start adding on fees that value diminishes. The last place I rented wasn't exactly located downtown and, after all the fees, only $15/night cheaper than a hotel. Our final 2 nights we stayed at a hotel and had a…

I don't think everyone assumes that delivery fees are included in normal prices. I would say quite the opposite.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#137

Post by baddox » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:36 PM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #8

A good example of beneficial government regulation, for people who refuse to believe such a thing exists. (Another good example is the Internet itself, but it's best to start small)

I think most people who tend to oppose regulation do so not because they believe a beneficial government regulation is impossible, but because the net effect of government regulation is negative.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#138

Post by radley » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:37 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #125

aero142 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cleaning fees make perfect sense to me. When renting a house out, if I stay 1 night, the owner has to clean the house once. If I stay 1 week, the owner has to clean the house once. Seems like this is just matching pricing to costs.

Cleaning fees and service fees, to me, are like delivery fees. Everyone assumes they are paying for them in the rental. And almost everyone I know uses AirBnB because it is cheaper than a hotel. But once you start adding on fees that value diminishes. The last place I rented wasn't exactly located downtown and, after all the fees, only $15/night cheaper than a hotel. Our final 2 nights we stayed at a hotel and had a…

My last hotel bill had:

HSIA 5.95

OCC Tax 25.90

CTA Fee 0.10

Tour Tax 2.59

adding almost $35 to my room.

When I rent, I put down a deposit. If it's not in similar condition when I move out, they use the deposit for cleaning and repairs.

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#139

Post by twistedpair » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:37 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #125

aero142 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cleaning fees make perfect sense to me. When renting a house out, if I stay 1 night, the owner has to clean the house once. If I stay 1 week, the owner has to clean the house once. Seems like this is just matching pricing to costs.

Cleaning fees and service fees, to me, are like delivery fees. Everyone assumes they are paying for them in the rental. And almost everyone I know uses AirBnB because it is cheaper than a hotel. But once you start adding on fees that value diminishes. The last place I rented wasn't exactly located downtown and, after all the fees, only $15/night cheaper than a hotel. Our final 2 nights we stayed at a hotel and had a…

Funny, last time I staid in a hotel, they didn't charge me a cleaning fee... and they cleaned the room every day!

Re: Some Dark Patterns Now Illegal in UK

#140

Post by smackfu » Tue, Aug 26, 2014, 5:38 PM UTC

pmh wrote: post #87

yardie wrote: post #42

Hey AirBnB. I hope you're listening. Sneaking in service charges and "cleaning fees" is no bueno. I know it's not you doing the later but I hate it when I find an apartment at an appropriate price then good hoodwinked for additional services I don't particularly care for.

FWIW, I recall the latter being included in the nightly rate when I was searching for places. It does switch to an itemized list of expenses when you actually view a property though.

Yes, that's true. It helps avoid people setting nightly rates low but then charging $100 cleaning fee.