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The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

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Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#61

Post by sentenza »

Jimbotron wrote: post #49
MalcolmDiggs wrote: post #3

It's kind of remarkable that they kept the lid on this on long as they did. With so many local/loosely-related agencies involved, I'm surprised somebody didn't leak this much sooner.

Yes, I find it VERY hard to believe that this went on and nobody mentioned it at all. Not one disgruntled employee, not anyone mentioning it to a friend at a bar? No way.

Uhm. Just because you didn't believe it doesn't mean that it wasn't known. The CCC was talking about this stuff years ago, some of it conjecture, some of it information from old sources/anonymous sources and the like.

Now we have proof. So that's that.

Also, given the strong "disincentivization" for whistleblowing that is going on at intelligence agencies, I am not at all surprised that it took a few years before somebody went public with it.

Hell, it used to take decades before this kind of stuff became public. Just this year we were made aware that the West German spy agencies opened _all_ cross-border inter-German mail. You know, the kind of thing that we in West Germany were told only the East Germans would do. That was kept secret for more than 20 years after it stopped being done, even though thousands of people were involved.

Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#62

Post by chiph »

d1str0 wrote: post #25
MalcolmDiggs wrote: post #3

It's kind of remarkable that they kept the lid on this on long as they did. With so many local/loosely-related agencies involved, I'm surprised somebody didn't leak this much sooner.

It clearly says only a few intelligence officers from the different agencies had access. So it's not like any ol' police officer of FBI agent had access to this at all times.

Or maybe they did, and the search page had been rebranded so the officers didn't know it was operated by the NSA. Perhaps "Fusion Center Search 9000" or similar.

Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#63

Post by eli »

motters wrote: post #36
pdkl95 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, as with most of Greenwald's work on this subject, has been a slow effort to educate people about a very technical (for the average person) topic. Building on previous reports that showed the type of activity and the threat it can cause, this installment is about establishing the pattern of illegality. If the NSA could justify the time and expense to make a search tool, there must be a lot of searching needs...…

I think that's the key insight. It may not be legal for NSA to look at records of US citizens, but build a search engine and there are other departments for whom it is legal to do that. NSA just becomes the facilitator or router of the data.

Is that even what's being described? I don't see any reason why it would be bad to let the DEA search an NSA database of intelligence about foreign suspects.

The problem is (as it's always been) that they aren't just criminal suspects and they aren't all foreign. But that was the problem whether or not the NSA built a "Google."

Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#64

Post by TeMPOraL »

sentenza wrote: post #61
Jimbotron wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I find it VERY hard to believe that this went on and nobody mentioned it at all. Not one disgruntled employee, not anyone mentioning it to a friend at a bar? No way.

Uhm. Just because you didn't believe it doesn't mean that it wasn't known. The CCC was talking about this stuff years ago, some of it conjecture, some of it information from old sources/anonymous sources and the like. Now we have proof. So that's that. Also, given the strong "disincentivization" for whistleblowing that is going on at intelligence agencies, I am not at all surprised that it took a few years before som…

Well, it is easy to dismiss people saying kind of stuff as 'crackpots' or 'tin-foil-hatters'.

I personally keep to a simple rule. If something is technologically feasible[0], economically viable and someone has an incentive for it, it will happen, period. This rule of thumb successfully filters out weather control crackpottery while correctly identifying surveillance capabilities (and no, it's not hindsight bias; the only thing I was surprised about Snowden revelations was that it was underwhelming).

[0] - and keep in mind that pretty much anything is.

Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#65

Post by chadwickthebold »

Jimbotron wrote: post #49
MalcolmDiggs wrote: post #3

It's kind of remarkable that they kept the lid on this on long as they did. With so many local/loosely-related agencies involved, I'm surprised somebody didn't leak this much sooner.

Yes, I find it VERY hard to believe that this went on and nobody mentioned it at all. Not one disgruntled employee, not anyone mentioning it to a friend at a bar? No way.

When your livelihood is based entirely on your security clearance and your ability to keep working in the security industry you make it a very big point to not talk about this stuff outside of work. I had a friend who went to work for a 3-letter agency and started consistently avoiding bars/drinking because he was afraid he'd say something. This is exactly why whistleblowing is a problem in the intelligence community - they'll sue you to oblivion and/or imprison you for saying anything at all.

Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#66

Post by lucasgw »

curiousDog wrote: post #13

Wonder how and where they recruit their top-talent. Pretty much every top scorer in my school went to Facebook/Google/Msft/Amzn. The mediocre ones went to Northrop Grumman/Raytheon/Rockwell and the like.

For the same reason some MDs go to work for Médecins Sans Frontières instead of a top-paying job at a private hospital or partnership. A sense of duty. I grew up in a small town dominated by military/industrial companies. A lot of top talent moves there because they believe working for the government is what they should do.

Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#67

Post by dublinben »

atmosx wrote: post #42
Tangokat wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the Intercept, the U.S Military has banned employees from visiting First Look because there could be classified information on the site. [1] [2] (extra source since you can't see the real one..) Maybe that is what you are experiencing? [1] https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/08/20/u-s-military-b... [2] https://thebulletwire.com/u-s-military-bans-glenn-greenwalds...

That's similar to the wikileaks ban. I don't understand this policy: If something is accessible virtually from everywhere, what do you gain by not allowing your employees to access the info?! The only thing I can think of, is internal issues at political level (who said what lies to whom to achieve more funding about his work, etc.) which even that won't take long before the interested party eventually finds out.

It perpetuates the mythology of classification and information control. If you have clearance, you can lose it by accessing classified information improperly. That would probably mean losing your job. If you don't have clearance, you should be considering all the information you can get your hands on. Not doing so, would be poorly doing your job.

Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#68

Post by Dolimiter »

glitchdout wrote: post #53
Dolimiter wrote: post #44

Is anyone else puzzled that stories about the NSA are accepted as gospel fact when posted on Hacker News? The Reality Distortion Field appears, and people believe, because they want to believe. It depresses me, the lack of intelligent discourse. Most tech people I meet actually believe that the NSA records and stores all telephone calls. It's depressingly stupid, but I have given up arguing, logic and sense are not w…

They do record and store (foreign and domestic) phone calls. Your comment proves you're simply an ignorant or a shill. Proof: * NSA Collects ‘Word for Word’ Every Domestic Communication, Says Former Analyst http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/government_programs-july-dec1... * NSA collecting phone records of millions of Verizon customers daily http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-recor... * NSA surveilla…

I'm a "shill"? Really? This is the level of debate?

Also, none of your links in any way prove that the NSA stores all phone calls. None of them. 1 is hearsay from someone, another talks about metadata, and another says that the NSA can record any phone call (yes we know that). Nowhere is there any proof that all calls are being recorded.

This is what I am talking about. It doesn't seem possible to have a conversation about the NSA on Hacker News that is based on logic, reasoning or sense.

Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#69

Post by atmosx »

dublinben wrote: post #67
atmosx wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's similar to the wikileaks ban. I don't understand this policy: If something is accessible virtually from everywhere, what do you gain by not allowing your employees to access the info?! The only thing I can think of, is internal issues at political level (who said what lies to whom to achieve more funding about his work, etc.) which even that won't take long before the interested party eventually finds out.

It perpetuates the mythology of classification and information control. If you have clearance, you can lose it by accessing classified information improperly. That would probably mean losing your job. If you don't have clearance, you should be considering all the information you can get your hands on. Not doing so, would be poorly doing your job.

nicely explained, thanks :-)

Re: The Surveillance Engine: How the NSA Built Its Own Secret Google

#70

Post by Amezarak »

seiji wrote: post #6
us0r wrote: post #2

Somewhat OT but its amazing out of 3 "FTEs" 1 was for design ("GUI") and this is what they came up with. [1] pg 22 https://firstlook.org/theintercept/document/2014/08/25/shari...

Also notice the entire screen shot. Netscape on Windows XP in, best we can tell, sometime after March 2006. Netscape. With an AIM launcher in the status bar. Accessing TOP SECRET//COMINT//NOFORN resources.

It would be on a totally isolated network. Classified networks don't touch unclassified networks.
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