Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I do suggest we scrap it all and go back to the 1950s. Let people walk right out to the gate to meet arrivals. You could do this in the 90s. It still boggles my mind that someone thought it should be stamped out.
Methinks he was referring to not what we think of now as the "gate" (the extended building reaching to the plane), but in fact walking right out on the tarmac.
Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
161–170 of 170 posts
Re: Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is not the TSA doing the checks though. In Beijing, there is gate screening just as you described, but it is done by locals who don't speak English, and they definitely aren't looking for cash.
All of the people who screened my flights in these situations were wearing TSA uniforms.
Re: Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
What disturbs me is that you're arguing from the opposite extreme. Airport security does stop security threats - it raises the bar considerably. There's definitely an argument that current security is way over the top in the US, but the opposite extreme is even more silly. The moderate path is the way forward - it does not follow that all security measures are security theater. All the arguments about 'what about blo…
> Airport security does stop security threats - it raises the bar considerably. As somebody who flies a lot for work, it raises the bar enough to stop a really stupid terrorist. Those business travellers that you see flying week in, week out know more about airport security flaws than the TSA. On the other hand airplane security does raise the bar. The change to have reinforced cockpit doors was the only thing that c…
Re: Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Airport security does stop security threats - it raises the bar considerably. As somebody who flies a lot for work, it raises the bar enough to stop a really stupid terrorist. Those business travellers that you see flying week in, week out know more about airport security flaws than the TSA. On the other hand airplane security does raise the bar. The change to have reinforced cockpit doors was the only thing that c…
It's worth pointing out that we weren't discussing security changes post 9/11, but the presence of security at all. Pre 9/11 security did pretty well (as I said, see 90s vs 70s), which would be fine with a small bit of tuning. But to completely remove security altogether? It's throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
In response to prior experience with hijackers, pre-9/11 "security" primarily involved disarming the passengers and training passengers and crew alike that they should act like sheep, exercise no judgment of their own and obey any commands given by hijackers. 9/11 should have sufficiently demonstrated the fundamental flaw with that approach - that it is brittle. It was perhaps worth trying back then, but it didn't work and we should try something else instead.
There are many busses in NYC where the bus driver is in a bulletproof compartment; he doesn't have to come out until/unless it's safe. One cannot reasonably expect to hijack such a bus. Planes can be similarly safe against hijacking so long as airlines take cockpit security seriously. Make sure the door is strong and secure, make sure the pilots can see OUT of it well when they need to - this might involve a bulletproof glass window - and make sure there are clear protocols such that nothing going on in the main cabin can force the pilots to come out. Let the pilots be armed as well if they so desire. Beyond that, we might want to encourage passengers NOT to be sheep, but it would probably suffice to merely let them exercise common sense. (The would-be shoe bomber and underwear bomber were ignominiously foiled by fellow passengers.) "Taking control" of a huge room full of hundreds of people is not an inherently easy thing to do and it's not clear it could ever happen again in a similar situation now that the risk is known. Given that ordinary technology and protocols and social institutions make controlling the cabin unlikely and controlling the cockpit nearly impossible even WITH the use of weapons, why bother searching for them?
There is a weird feedback loop in operation: we are unusually afraid of plane hijackings, so plane hijackings are an unusually good way to make people afraid. But hijacking is already nearly impossible, so we just need to stop being afraid of it. The solution to terrorism is to stop being terrorized. Modern security leaves people defenseless as it sends the message that they SHOULD be afraid; getting rid of security would send the message that the threat isn't so bad that we need to be paranoid about it. Paradoxically, this would actually make planes a less attractive target for terrorists.
There is no baby in there; it's ALL bathwater. It's dirty and gross and needs to be tossed out.
Re: Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
TSA claim they don't search for eg drugs; they claim to search for expsi es and incidentally find drugs. This is the classic mission creep example. There are people who hide drugs in jars of peanut butter. This shows up on TSA screens as a jar with different stuff in, which they claim to view as suspicious because it looks like explosive.
There seems to be some goal post creep as well. How many classic examples are there?
Re: Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
#166Lots of people are posting highlighting how pointless airport security is given the ease with which a terrorist can bypass it by e.g. blowing himself up in the security line, targeting buses or shopping malls, making weapons from stuff bought "air side" etc. As this hasn't been happening (despite how easy it would be for a terrorist to do), the only logical conclusion I draw is that the entire terrorist threat is so…
Re: Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
CBP does not ALWAYS search outbound people, but retains the right to do so (at least in the US).
Where would they do it? At boarding? Most US airports have no wall between domestic and international flights.
Re: Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
You do get searched by TSA if you are coming from outside the country. In recent years I've flown in from Mexico, Spain, India and the Dominican Republic. For each flight, the boarding gate was blocked from general access and the only way to get in was to go through a TSA search. They only had metal detectors, but my bags were still searched. Had I been carrying a large sum of cash (or anything else that needs to be…
That is not the TSA doing the checks though. In Beijing, there is gate screening just as you described, but it is done by locals who don't speak English, and they definitely aren't looking for cash.
Typically this involves stationing agents at the departure gate. Anecdotal evidence suggests AMS is a popular place for this.
Re: Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
#169I ended up finding a way to get cigarette lighters through with a 100% success rate just by brute forcing it. If you travel a lot and you're a smoker you'd know that the worst part is getting off the flight, crawling through the airport at exit and then not having a lighter because they took it off you at departure[1]. No penalty for being caught with a lighter, so I kept leaving lighters in my bag in different place…
You sure you didn't make that change around August, 2007? http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information/lighters-and-matches
I remember when the change happen, because there were no longer the large bins and signs at both SFO and Sydney.
Lighters were the biggest single item holding up security queues prior to the liquids changes after the TATP '06 plots.
The one year period after summer 2006 was the worst possible time to travel, routinely took an hour to pass through most checkpoints.
Re: Pulling the Curtain on Airport Security [pdf]
#170Lots of people are posting highlighting how pointless airport security is given the ease with which a terrorist can bypass it by e.g. blowing himself up in the security line, targeting buses or shopping malls, making weapons from stuff bought "air side" etc. As this hasn't been happening (despite how easy it would be for a terrorist to do), the only logical conclusion I draw is that the entire terrorist threat is so…
Yet the TSA manages to find weapons all the time. On their blog [0], over the last 4 weeks, they claim to have confiscated 156 firearms from security checks. Even if 99% forgot they were carrying a weapon and accidentally brought it on the plane that's still 1-2 planes with a malicious guy carrying a gun every month. [0] http://blog.tsa.gov/