Live data from Hacker News

A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

guidetojapanese.org

21–29 of 29 posts

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am going to knock this because I used it. Problem: the written part of Japanese. You read this book and learn how to talk a bit, take a plane to Japan, then bam - surrounded by the visually amazing, but daunting Kanji. The Jorden school of thought totally disregards the written and focuses on the spoken. That is fine, but the wrong path to real Japanese fluency. The best way to start learning Japanese is to get int…

This is a long-standing debate. :-) I do agree that people who use this approach are behind others in reading / writing performance. Indeed, it took me awhile to catch up. But fortunately this is something you can pick up on your own fairly well. On the flip side, to be brutally honest, 99% of the people (that I've met anyway) who come through programs that focus on reading / writing sound horrible when they speak. T…

I also swear by JSL, and I'm practically the prototype for somebody who came through it: my Japanese ability is horrifically lopsided in that I speak like a college-educated engineer (important when you are one!) and, when forced to write without a computer, struggle like a not-too-bright 6th grader.

That said, there are vanishingly few times in life when an engineer is required to handwrite anything other than their name and address, but I have to speak to people constantly. When I do, I'm consistently reminded how fortunate I am that I learned contextually appropriate Japanese, a strong foundation in grammar, and proper polite Japanese (something many American Japanese programs just abandon on the excuse "bah, that's hard and you don't really need it" -- which sounds great until we're being introduced to the mayor and you say "Yo gramps where's the crapper?").

That is not an exaggeration, by the way. I spent the next hour apologizing for her. (For students of the language: ジジ、トイレはどこ? vs. standard Japanese トイレはどこですか? vs. in consideration of the fact that the mayor vastly outranks both of us すみませんが、お手洗いはどちらにあるかご存知ですか?)

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my other comment. I would be willing to bet that more top performers under the JSL system compared with top performers under a reading / writing focused system will end up being much more successful in careers / life in Japanese society. Japanese people take for granted that Kanji is hard and are forgiving when Westerners aren't that great at it, but it's painfully hard to listen to someone speak with non-native…

Actually Japanese know it is hard, and focus on it like madmen. A top Nintendo DS game for adults in Japan is a Kanji re-training game. In any case, Kanji is so visual - until I learned it many words didn't make sense to me. Knowing how to say it, but not understanding the real-underlying meaning is not fun. As far as intonation, Japanese is one of the easiest languages with regards to that. Once you get the basics i…

I don't meet many Westerners that think Japanese intonation is easy. :-) It's probably the most critical aspect of sounding natural when stacked up against all other factors and can make or break the tone of the conversation.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#23
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a long-standing debate. :-) I do agree that people who use this approach are behind others in reading / writing performance. Indeed, it took me awhile to catch up. But fortunately this is something you can pick up on your own fairly well. On the flip side, to be brutally honest, 99% of the people (that I've met anyway) who come through programs that focus on reading / writing sound horrible when they speak. T…

I also swear by JSL, and I'm practically the prototype for somebody who came through it: my Japanese ability is horrifically lopsided in that I speak like a college-educated engineer (important when you are one !) and, when forced to write without a computer, struggle like a not-too-bright 6th grader. That said, there are vanishingly few times in life when an engineer is required to handwrite anything other than thei…

Wow, ouch. That's hilarious.

I share your not-too-bright-6th-grader feelings during the 1% of the time I actually have to write something with my hands. ;-)

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually Japanese know it is hard, and focus on it like madmen. A top Nintendo DS game for adults in Japan is a Kanji re-training game. In any case, Kanji is so visual - until I learned it many words didn't make sense to me. Knowing how to say it, but not understanding the real-underlying meaning is not fun. As far as intonation, Japanese is one of the easiest languages with regards to that. Once you get the basics i…

I don't meet many Westerners that think Japanese intonation is easy. :-) It's probably the most critical aspect of sounding natural when stacked up against all other factors and can make or break the tone of the conversation.

I think Japanese intonation is very hard for native english speakers but it's not hard at all for someone speaking romance languages (the sonorities are rather similar to spanish I find...)

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#26
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't meet many Westerners that think Japanese intonation is easy. :-) It's probably the most critical aspect of sounding natural when stacked up against all other factors and can make or break the tone of the conversation.

I think Japanese intonation is very hard for native english speakers but it's not hard at all for someone speaking romance languages (the sonorities are rather similar to spanish I find...)

the sonorities are rather similar to spanish I find...

This is very true. I grew up in an area where lots of Spanish is spoken, and I learned a tiny bit myself. For me, Japanese pronunciation was trivial. My teachers were praising me right off the bat. The only difficulty I have is with my current tutor, who is bent on teaching me to pronounce the Japanese r/l the way a Japanese would. (AFAIK it's not necessary at all for understandability, just a pet peeve of hers.) I had a very different experience with French and German, so I know I'm not especially gifted at phonetics. I think the early exposure to Spanish was the key.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#27
post #12

Reminds me of Japanese: The Spoken Language, which is what I used to learn Japanese. It's quite challenging at first but I can't think of a better way for an adult to learn the language well.

Sorry, I gotta disagree with you. Learning Japanese using an antiquated romaji system (si vs shi, etc.) and not learning any kana or kanji won't get you very far. What good is that when show up in Japan and can't read any of the signs around you? I saw Eleanor Jorden (writer of JSL) talk at Cornell, and a kid in the audience asked, "I opened a book and saw a bunch of squiggly lines!" To throw out a language's native…

> What good is that when show up in Japan and can't read any of the signs around you?

Anyone have an idea of how difficult it would be to do an augmented reality iPhone app that would translate these signs, etc., on the fly for you? If I were traveling, I would probably buy an iPhone just for that app.

A quick Google search turned up this NYT article [1] from 2002 about the idea. Does this exist in a retail app already?

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/14/technology/what-s-next-poi...

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#28
post #3

Thanks mbrubeck, great reference. I highly recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Step-Innovative-Approach-Spea... as another excellent resource. Written by an engineer for engineers, with detailed flow charts for the various conjugation rules and other aspects of the grammar. The book lists the various common sentence structures then teaches you how to expand the various fragments to construct more comp…

I once got some way through writing a program which turned OCaml variants into Japanese sentences. So you'd write something along the lines of:

`IsIn (`Noun "neko", `Noun "uchi")

(except usually far more complex) and it would generate the Japanese sentence, working out is "neko" is animate or not and so how to translate `IsIn correctly.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#29
This reminds me of my Japanese classes in high school, my/our teacher had made his own litterature for the class and we constantly played our scenarios/theater/sketches. Trained Japanese "thinking", grammar, writing, talking, interacting.. all at the same time. Landed me at "little of everything".. I wish I paid more attention now!
Post reply on HN