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The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

#31

Post by iagooar »

probably_wrong wrote: post #24
rememberlenny wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are examples?

If you mean examples about rent prices, a 1-room apartment in Charlottenburg (nice location) costs around €600. Similar apartment in Wedding (a bit further north) is around €500. For reference, a regular programming job should be around €1500 per month after taxes, while a month worth of supermarket food costs around €250 (although the right habits can shave almost a hundred from that). Add another €100 for a month o…

If you get 1500€ after taxes, you are being hugely underpaid. 2000€ should be the very least you should expect / demand.

Re: The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

#32

Post by enraged_camel »

_delirium wrote: post #18
freehunter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article does talk about African laborers and Bulgarian demolition crews. Not high-skilled work. Also "Angela Merkel... has spoken out against immigrants relocating here merely to tap generous domestic welfare benefits." You're right that masses of low-skill immigrants is a problem, especially when they are not integrating with society. It seems Germany has this problem too ("And many Germans still call the lack o…

The Turkish "problem" is longstanding and kind on both sides as well. Many Turks are not that sure if they want to integrate into German society, and many Germans are not sure if they want them to either (though this sentiment is weaker than it once was). That produces a self-reinforcing situation. Many of the current Turkish residents came during the 1960s as part of a guest-worker program [1], or are descended from…

As a Turk, I don't see the "Turkish problem" as being Germany's fault at all. These people went to Germany on a temporary basis, and decided to just not leave when the guest-worker program ended. In other words, they overstayed their welcome.

Imagine inviting a guest to your house for dinner, and them liking your house a lot and deciding to just move in permanently. Are you then expected to encourage them to put their name on the lease (i.e. become a citizen)? I don't think so.

Re: The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

#33

Post by kbar13 »

tokenadult wrote: post #30

I wonder how many of us commenting on this article read past the headline to take a look at the chart (displayed on the left side of the article text, as I view the article in my browser) titled "More Immigrants Moving to Germany"? That chart shows very plainly, based on OECD statistics, that the United States has a higher absolute number of immigrants each year than Germany, as it has for a long time. The striking t…

there are more immigrants moving to germany

Re: The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

#34

Post by krebby »

Mz wrote: post #16

Excerpt: “Berlin is different than other parts of Germany, and that’s why I think I can make it here,” he said. “It is more relaxed, more accepting than other German cities, and there is no pressure to behave a certain way.” As I understand it, that would be something of a holdover from the cold war days when the culture there was unique due to it's odd political situation.

Largely due to the high numbers of young counterculturalists who moved to West Berlin in the 70s and 80s. (Unlike the rest of West Germany West Berlin didn't have conscription.)

Re: The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

#35

Post by uberwach »

probably_wrong wrote: post #24
rememberlenny wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are examples?

If you mean examples about rent prices, a 1-room apartment in Charlottenburg (nice location) costs around €600. Similar apartment in Wedding (a bit further north) is around €500. For reference, a regular programming job should be around €1500 per month after taxes, while a month worth of supermarket food costs around €250 (although the right habits can shave almost a hundred from that). Add another €100 for a month o…

1500€/month after taxes sounds very low. That is like 27k yearly before taxes (Steuerklasse 1 / no church taxes). Eastern europeans get paid that, because you can lowball them so easily. But as far as I know 40k is a lower bound for cs graduates.

For reference I got 56.5k/year base salary at my first job after graduation (small company) and that were 2770€/month after taxes. I even have two friends that earn more than I do. Quit that one after half a year though (russian offshore programmers communication hell).

Your rent/food prices are correct though. Small hack: your employer can pay you 44€/month tax-free for the public transport ticket (geldwerter Vorteil Freibetrag).

Re: The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

#36

Post by krebby »

enraged_camel wrote: post #32
_delirium wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Turkish "problem" is longstanding and kind on both sides as well. Many Turks are not that sure if they want to integrate into German society, and many Germans are not sure if they want them to either (though this sentiment is weaker than it once was). That produces a self-reinforcing situation. Many of the current Turkish residents came during the 1960s as part of a guest-worker program [1], or are descended from…

As a Turk, I don't see the "Turkish problem" as being Germany's fault at all. These people went to Germany on a temporary basis, and decided to just not leave when the guest-worker program ended. In other words, they overstayed their welcome. Imagine inviting a guest to your house for dinner, and them liking your house a lot and deciding to just move in permanently. Are you then expected to encourage them to put thei…

Can you blame them? As I've heard it told, many of the German employers wanted to hold onto the employees they'd already poured training resources into (and enjoyed working with). Many of the Turks had established families and livelihoods in Germany by the time the guest worker program ended.

Re: The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

#37

Post by _delirium »

enraged_camel wrote: post #32
_delirium wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Turkish "problem" is longstanding and kind on both sides as well. Many Turks are not that sure if they want to integrate into German society, and many Germans are not sure if they want them to either (though this sentiment is weaker than it once was). That produces a self-reinforcing situation. Many of the current Turkish residents came during the 1960s as part of a guest-worker program [1], or are descended from…

As a Turk, I don't see the "Turkish problem" as being Germany's fault at all. These people went to Germany on a temporary basis, and decided to just not leave when the guest-worker program ended. In other words, they overstayed their welcome. Imagine inviting a guest to your house for dinner, and them liking your house a lot and deciding to just move in permanently. Are you then expected to encourage them to put thei…

If it were literally a 3-year temporary visa or something, I'd agree (and they wouldn't be there anymore, because overstaying would lead to deportation). But they didn't illegally overstay. They simply worked in Germany long enough to became German nationals. Partly, because in the EU (formerly European Community), the concept of a long-term "guest" with no rights is just not recognized: if someone lives in your country for years at your invitation, is able to support themselves and not engaged in criminality, and has learned some language/civics basics, they have a right to apply for permanent residency after some period.

I don't think I support the concept of a long-term "guest" with no rights, so I don't think it's wrong that such rights exist. That's what countries like Kuwait or Dubai do, with long-term "guest workers" who don't have legal rights. If someone has lived and worked here (Denmark) for 5 or 8 or 10 years or whatever, I think they should have legal rights on that basis. Much more so if they were born in Denmark; and doubly that if their parents were born in Denmark too, so that it's been two generations since they were immigrants. What is the alternative in that case, deport someone who was born and raised in Denmark to a country only their grandparents were actually from, and whose language they don't even speak?

Re: The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

#38

Post by learc83 »

legulere wrote: post #29
freehunter wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article does talk about African laborers and Bulgarian demolition crews. Not high-skilled work. Also "Angela Merkel... has spoken out against immigrants relocating here merely to tap generous domestic welfare benefits." You're right that masses of low-skill immigrants is a problem, especially when they are not integrating with society. It seems Germany has this problem too ("And many Germans still call the lack o…

The "issue" with the turkish really cooled down in the last maybe 20 years. Over 50% of young people in Germany already say that Islam belongs to Germany.

>Over 50% of young people in Germany already say that Islam belongs to Germany.

What does that mean?

Re: The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany

#40

Post by trentmb »

emsy wrote: post #27
freehunter wrote: post #7

What is the chance of moving to Germany from the US without a college degree, but rather with five years industry experience and a handful of certifications, plus a good grasp of the German language? Would companies generally go for that, or would German authorities allow that?

I'd say it's possible. I had colleagues with no grasp of the German language, minor English skills and no degree because the IT Industry in Germany is terribly hungry for employees. This was in Stuttgart (southwest), but I assume it's the same accross the country.

Sorry for the dumb question, but how would I find these employers?

I did study four years of German in highschool (so I can hold a conversation with a toddler. Maybe) and have a degree in mathematics from UIUC.

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