Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild • Hacker News Board

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#151

Post by nekopa » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 2:49 PM UTC

samirmenon wrote: post #52

spiralganglion wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These subjects can be learned from people who are actually passionate about them, whether in person or remotely. My uncle is a University history professor, and I learn more about world history from his uncontrollable desire to constantly relate every event in our lives to some event historical, than I have from any in-school study. No sense in having to spend so long covering the first eight years of school arithmet…

Do the kids in the article have access to the internet? Do they use it?

Their dad writes a blog. So they do have access, and maybe they do use it, maybe not.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#152

Post by nekopa » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 2:52 PM UTC

pikachu_is_cool wrote: post #123

fred_durst wrote: post #3

> At the time, my father—who earned his undergraduate degree at Cornell and his master’s at Johns Hopkins Nothing cooler than rich kids taking all their advantages they were given and use them to live like paupers with zero concern for the the world around them. > I can report that Fin and Rye both learned to read and write with essentially zero instruction, albeit when they were about eight years old, a year or so l…

Just fair warning, most of the people who are responding to you in disagreement have never actually met a un/homeschooled person / person's parents in real life. The reason why unschooling is so bad is entirely social. Homeschooled kids are crippled socially. It sounds good, feels good, etc. but once you actually see it with your own eyes it makes sense why this hasn't caught on.

I've met plenty of homeschooled people/parents. What on earth do you mean by socially crippled? If anything, these people have been the most socially apt people I've met.

Maybe that is because I value different social traits than you do.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#153

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 2:53 PM UTC

fchollet wrote: post #13

The fundamental problem with the elementary school system in the west is that kids are given no room for self-direction whatsoever; school for them is de facto a part-time prison or "labor" camp. As a result they are trained by association to dread to that which the system purports to champion: learning, culture, reading, knowledge, even any demonstration of intelligence. It takes a combination of luck, will and posi…

Learning can be hard. Kids love easy things. It takes direction, monitoring, pushing to get them to try to read, or do arithmetic, or master pretty much any delayed-gratification skill.

Left on their own, kids will likely get a broad shallow education with one or two deep dives into subjects of dubious value.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#154

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 2:55 PM UTC

pikachu_is_cool wrote: post #123

fred_durst wrote: post #3

> At the time, my father—who earned his undergraduate degree at Cornell and his master’s at Johns Hopkins Nothing cooler than rich kids taking all their advantages they were given and use them to live like paupers with zero concern for the the world around them. > I can report that Fin and Rye both learned to read and write with essentially zero instruction, albeit when they were about eight years old, a year or so l…

Just fair warning, most of the people who are responding to you in disagreement have never actually met a un/homeschooled person / person's parents in real life. The reason why unschooling is so bad is entirely social. Homeschooled kids are crippled socially. It sounds good, feels good, etc. but once you actually see it with your own eyes it makes sense why this hasn't caught on.

If by 'socially crippled' you mean unscarred by bullies, unbored by mass indoctrination lectures, and untutored in vandalism and cheating, then sure.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#155

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 3:02 PM UTC

xexers wrote: post #147

The author implies that self directly learning is always better than classroom. I can think of examples where this is not true. For example, I know dozens of people who were never formally taught how to touch type on a computer keyboard. Most of them simply learned to type on their own by using the keyboard. They often type with 2 fingers on each hand (index and middle). They get to a level that they feel is "good en…

Agreed. The most valuable class I ever took was high-school typing. In my profession I see folks resist revisiting/improving code, because it takes them so damn long to type anything.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#156

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 3:03 PM UTC

judk wrote: post #149

xexers wrote: post #147

The author implies that self directly learning is always better than classroom. I can think of examples where this is not true. For example, I know dozens of people who were never formally taught how to touch type on a computer keyboard. Most of them simply learned to type on their own by using the keyboard. They often type with 2 fingers on each hand (index and middle). They get to a level that they feel is "good en…

Eh, not really. Most computer-typing professionals (programmers etc) learned touch typing by natural practice. People who don't type much and never practice don't get fast. School definitely not required even for intense practice.

A person can go a lifetime as a typing cripple. It takes work to get out of bad habits and into good ones. And its a delay-gratification process - you're screwed up for a week or so as you deconstruct your typing reflexes.

OR, they can take a class or buy a learn-to-type book, bite the bullet and study/practice.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#157

Post by JoeAltmaier » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 3:10 PM UTC

fchollet wrote: post #139

lostcolony wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Choice, but also, role models. How does a kid know they want to learn to read, except to see others reading? How does a kid know they want to learn math, except to see someone else able to solve a useful problem they had no idea could be solved? In a thread on income inequality, someone posited that the best indicator for economic success was whether a person was read to as a child. They meant it as a holistic indica…

Completely agree --the fundamental problem to solve is that of motivation, and motivation will very often come from role models and mentors. The function of a mentor is not limited to providing an example of what can be learned and why it should be learned. A mentor should also directly provide motivation reenforcement whenever the kid shows progress on the right path. The best education will be self-direction in a c…

Sure, self-directed. But then the support of a tutor is invaluable! Why let the poor kid flounder around, motivated but unskilled at learning? Show them the right path! Or at least all the options.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#158

Post by nsmartt » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 3:11 PM UTC

LunaSea wrote: post #136

peterfirefly wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got a newer reference than Benezet 1936? Got a reference where they tested it with good math teachers? Has the study been replicated in a country with a different (better) math tradition, such as France?

Not OP, but it wouldn't matter that a good math teacher would've had a more positive effect. Most teachers are shit at what they do and that won't change. There are too many advantages in a lot of countries for becoming a teacher (civil servant) - salary excluded.

Improving education involves improving the approaches used by teachers, whether teachers already employed or new teachers. These kinds of things don't change overnight, but they can be changed over generations. Studies are, in theory, an effective way to determine what aspiring teachers should know and apply.

I don't think driving down the advantages of becoming a teacher is an effective way to improve performance. Many people interested in making a difference would, rightfully, forgo being a teacher for their own sakes and take a different approach.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#159

Post by xexers » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 3:21 PM UTC

judk wrote: post #149

xexers wrote: post #147

The author implies that self directly learning is always better than classroom. I can think of examples where this is not true. For example, I know dozens of people who were never formally taught how to touch type on a computer keyboard. Most of them simply learned to type on their own by using the keyboard. They often type with 2 fingers on each hand (index and middle). They get to a level that they feel is "good en…

Eh, not really. Most computer-typing professionals (programmers etc) learned touch typing by natural practice. People who don't type much and never practice don't get fast. School definitely not required even for intense practice.

I work in the software development field and I'd say only 50% of the QA & Dev people use touch typing... and I've worked in 4 different companies.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#160

Post by fecklessyouth » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 3:25 PM UTC

glenra wrote: post #89

jiggy2011 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if self-direction is really a good idea. When I was a kid I would have directed myself towards video games and cartoons. I probably would not have independently developed an interest in english grammer and math.

Video games and cartoons can be valuable learning experiences. We learn a lot through play. If you got into minecraft you'd be doing engineering. If you got into Wildstar or WoW or some other guild-based combat system you'd be learning leadership and social dynamics - how to keep a team together and happy - and also a certain amount of math. If you got into Quake-like games you might discover the modding community an…

I wish you were right. I wish my little brother's Minecraft addiction would lead to something productive. He's talked about learning to program because of it; but of course, he hasn't actually started. That's because he's a child, and lacks the force of will to do anything which is not as immediately satisfying as playing videogames. If he was forced to learn programming, he would probably like it, but he's never going to do it on his own. Because it's hard.

Cartoons are even worse. There is nothing more vegetative than watching TV.