Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild • Hacker News Board

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#101

Post by glenra » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 8:51 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #83

samirmenon wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually quite hurt by this comment. Firstly, I have worked for the past three years as a software developer. I've had to deliver things to a manager, figure out exactly what a client wants, and work collaboratively. I think that I've at least had a taste of the "real world". Secondly, the idea that I lack some kind of mental capability to "understand or imagine what is possible outside of the school" is deeply f…

>I hope the next time you talk to or meet a 16 year old, you don't assume that they lack any ability to understand the "real world". Most 16 year olds in the developed world do lack an ability to understand the "real world" (by that I mean the adult experience) because 16 year olds lack adult responsibility by default. Having a part time job is not the same as working to provide food and shelter for you and your fami…

> In addition, the human brain doesn't fully develop until around 25, so your judgment at 16 is fundamentally flawed.

Even if the premise is true, that seems an unreasonable conclusion. On what possible basis could one describe the judgement of a pre-25 brain as "fundamentally flawed"? What makes you consider an old, decrepit, no-longer-developing brain optimal? "Finished growing" doesn't mean "best", it just means "finished growing".

Jewish law considers a man "an adult" at 13, a woman "an adult" at 12. 16-year-olds are perfectly capable of adult behavior, regardless of the degree to which we choose to coddle them in the modern era.

When we treat kids as rational beings capable of mature reasoning, they are more likely to act as such.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#102

Post by dredericktatum » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 8:52 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #79

fchollet wrote: post #13

The fundamental problem with the elementary school system in the west is that kids are given no room for self-direction whatsoever; school for them is de facto a part-time prison or "labor" camp. As a result they are trained by association to dread to that which the system purports to champion: learning, culture, reading, knowledge, even any demonstration of intelligence. It takes a combination of luck, will and posi…

> elementary school system in the west is that kids are given no room for self-direction To be fair this is happening not just in the West. Japan's education system is a disaster in itself which creates kids who stop asking questions after a couple of years. I let you imagine what you end up when they reach the state of adulthood.

Japan are part of the west. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I say 'the west', I'm not talking about geography. I mean cultures that value economic success above most everything else. Besides, they're only 'west' when the US is on the left side of your projection of the globe. It's a useful and well understood colloquialism so I use it.

PS: I'm not saying economy is to blame, but the idea that there's exactly one way to be successful (make money in this case), given enough time and belief, will eventually devolve and create dysfunctional systems like those we see in schools today where individuality is quickly eroded because a 'higher' goal is being chased: pass your tests so you can progress to college (or whatever) and then become a success. Step one: learn the same stuff, in the same way as everyone else (in an environment that, by design or not, encourages conformity), step 2: ???, step 3: PROFIT.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#103

Post by xorcist » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 8:53 AM UTC

samirmenon wrote: post #84

learc83 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I hope the next time you talk to or meet a 16 year old, you don't assume that they lack any ability to understand the "real world". Most 16 year olds in the developed world do lack an ability to understand the "real world" (by that I mean the adult experience) because 16 year olds lack adult responsibility by default. Having a part time job is not the same as working to provide food and shelter for you and your fami…

Absolutely. I hope that every year of my life, I look back, and laugh at the things I 'knew' 10 years ago. Is it the same for you? The oft-repeated idea of an "underdeveloped" teenage brain is a bit old. Scientific American did a piece on it in 2007. ( http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-myth-of-the-te... )

> I hope that every year of my life, I look back, and laugh at the things I 'knew' 10 years ago.

You know what? I never did do that, and I'm starting to think I never will.

There may be many 20-year-olds that "knows" many things (in the same scare quotes you indended), but there are a lot of 30- and 40-year-olds who do that as well. I have a growing suspicion these may all be the same people...

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#104

Post by barry-cotter » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 8:55 AM UTC

rodgerd wrote: post #61

tatterdemalion wrote: post #45

I don't understand how, on a site called "Hacker News," so many people seem oblivious to how damaging the primary educational system is to young peoples' minds and methods of thought. Unschooling doesn't mean not teaching children: that's what happens in schools.

> I don't understand how, on a site called "Hacker News," so many people seem oblivious to how damaging the primary educational system is to young peoples' minds and methods of thought. I don't understand how, on a site called "Hacker News," so many people seem happy to upvote mindless, sweeping, and ignorant statements about a specialist topic from people obviously largely ignorant on said topic.

Nearly everyone reading went to school. We know it sucked for us, why should we not believe it sucks now? I know far, far more about primary and secondary school than I do about almost any other industry, I spent thousands of hours in it

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#105

Post by jiggy2011 » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 8:57 AM UTC

glenra wrote: post #97

jiggy2011 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it might be wishful thinking to imagine that kids left to their own devices will identify and persue useful skills without adult guidance. Even if every kid who watches cartoons develops an interest in stop motion animation, how many stop motion animators do we need? How would you even understand how to start with quake modding without knowing basic math and reading comprehension? When I was at school there w…

One develops reading comprehension by reading , including texts, blogs, and videogame chat - and time spent sitting at a desk being talked at takes away from the time you could be using to do that. Realizing you want to do something that requires basic math gives you a reason to learn basic math, which makes learning that basic math easy . (Me, I learned trigonometry because it was helpful to draw cool patterns on a…

In order to read you need to be exposed to books and also somebody to read with you until you can do it on your own. Since there is no instinctual human drive to seek out books you need to be guided in that direction and encouraged to push through the pain barrier because it's quite boring to start with. This is basically what the job of a teacher is.

It may well be true that kids with educated parents can do well in a loosely structured environment with freedom to explore, but these kids tend to outperform whatever the education structure. Kids who grow up in deprived areas without educated role models risk being "educated" by criminal gangs.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#106

Post by jiggy2011 » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 8:58 AM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #99

jiggy2011 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it might be wishful thinking to imagine that kids left to their own devices will identify and persue useful skills without adult guidance. Even if every kid who watches cartoons develops an interest in stop motion animation, how many stop motion animators do we need? How would you even understand how to start with quake modding without knowing basic math and reading comprehension? When I was at school there w…

You can't compare the schools you went to with the Sudbury system. The skipping class happens exactly because you are trapped, because there is something you rather will. But why skip class if you can do what you want?

Sure, if they were allowed to swear and fight in class they might not have skipped so much but what would that achieve besides disrupting the kids who actually wanted to learn?

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#107

Post by nmrm » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:00 AM UTC

kennywinker wrote: post #33

JDDunn9 wrote: post #17

Seriously? If unschooling were so great 3rd world countries would be dominating the world. Creativity is domain specific. Walking around the woods won't help you be creative in solving math/engineering/science problems. You need a strong background in the subject, and to see how other people solved similar problems. I feel bad for these kids as their future is being pigeon-holed. Who's going to hire someone who's edu…

I think you're wrong on a bunch of points. The reason developing countries aren't "dominating the world" is because of a bunch of things, and the life of a kid from a developing country is very far from the life of an unschooled kid in the west. Unschooled kids (and I know a lot of them) in the west are usually fairly privileges. If not economically (which definitely isn't always the case) then they are privileged to…

> You can have endless domain knowledge, and not an original thought in your head.

I hear this a lot, and don't think it's at all true. It's pretty difficult to get to phd-level background in an area without having some thoughts no one else has explored yet. In fact I'm not sure it's even possible.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#108

Post by konstruktor » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:01 AM UTC

fred_durst wrote: post #72

droithomme wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing cooler than rich kids taking all their advantages The author's father worked for the state department of education and his mother was a substitute teacher. What evidence do you have that they are rich as you claim? > I shouldn't be so sarcastic about child abuse Child abuse is a serious accusation. Please state the evidence you have that there is child abuse and the steps you have taken to report your perso…

I absolutely disagree that this type of "home schooling" should be legal. I do believe it is child abuse. These people should be treated just any parent that does not enroll their child in school. And I think they should have their kids placed in state custody and not even considered letting their children back in their care until they have had a full psychiatric evaluation. It's true that these parents are likely si…

I find absolutely no reason to believe those people have any sort of psychological problems. The guy writes eloquently and coherently. The arguments he makes are rational, albeit, in my opinion, not compelling.

The question is: How much freedom do parents have to influence their children's upbringing. This is clearly a political issue, and seems to have been settled in the US in a way that gives parents a lot of choice. To label somebody who actually uses these liberties as mentally ill is absolutely disgusting.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#109

Post by jiggy2011 » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:06 AM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #79

fchollet wrote: post #13

The fundamental problem with the elementary school system in the west is that kids are given no room for self-direction whatsoever; school for them is de facto a part-time prison or "labor" camp. As a result they are trained by association to dread to that which the system purports to champion: learning, culture, reading, knowledge, even any demonstration of intelligence. It takes a combination of luck, will and posi…

> elementary school system in the west is that kids are given no room for self-direction To be fair this is happening not just in the West. Japan's education system is a disaster in itself which creates kids who stop asking questions after a couple of years. I let you imagine what you end up when they reach the state of adulthood.

It doesn't seem to have hurt the Japanese ability to innovate in technology and culture too much though.

Re: Unschooling: The Case for Setting Your Kids Into the Wild

#110

Post by bayesianhorse » Sun, Aug 17, 2014, 9:10 AM UTC

The case against abandoning conventional schooling: In developing countries, every month a child goes to school significantly increases final IQ and future earning power.

You think you have an ADHD epidemic on your hand? Just wait until children who don't have ADHD don't have to learn to sit still and discipline themselves and their emotions.