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George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

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Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#111

From a timing perspective, this was published in March, 1940. Some other noteworthy events with their dates: * Germany invades Poland (September, 1939) * Britain, France, Canada, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany (September, 1939) * Soviets invade Poland, which is later split (October, 1939) * Nazis begin euthanasia of ill and disabled in Germany (October, 1939) * Soviets attack Finland (November, 1939…

It's amazing to me that, in all likelihood, had Hitler decided to call it quits earlier, the world would have sat back and allowed him to keep some of his conquests (eg Denmark, Norway or Belgium). Today it would be unthinkable to allow a large nation to invade Belgium with no counter international military response.

There have been some pretty large scale invasions in the last 10-15 years. Those countries that were anti them faced a pretty dark few years in terms of international relations. At least that's how the deadlines were interpreted by me. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War

Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#112
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that anyone who purges people who disagree, who exterminates and enslaves minorities, and who uses military thugs to achieve his ends, can't be left wing? Please enlighten us on your highly non-standard definition of "left wing".

> In left-right politics, left-wing politics are political positions or activities that accept or support social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics vs. > Right-wing politics are political positions or activities that view some forms of social hierarchy or social inequality as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable,…

Ok, so by this definition, Stalin was certainly not left-wing, since he exterminated and enslaved minorities, which you appear to agree is not supportive of social equality. Yet Stalin is used in the same Wikipedia article as an example of left-wing activities.

Also, if pacifism is left-wing, then the Obama administration is certainly not left-wing or anything close to it, since he has repeatedly authorized military action. I suppose you could finesse this point by saying that neither major party in the US is left-wing by your criterion. But trying to apply this more generally, for example to claim that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc., were not "really" left-wing, looks a lot like a "no true Scotsman" argument.

In fact, by the pacifism criterion, I'm not aware of any government or political movement that has ever been left-wing; the closest thing to it would be some religious orders, like the Amish, who really do try to be pacifists. (Some people would put the Quakers in this category, but the Quakers have always flavored their surface pacifism with a strong pragmatic streak; they sold gunpowder to Washington's army during the American Revolution, for example.) But this makes "left-wing" a basically useless term, not to mention that you would have to explain to an awful lot of people that they have been using it wrong for a long time, since most people apply the term to Stalin, as I noted above, as well as Mao, Pol Pot, etc.

Finally, if left-wing means supportive of social equality for everyone, then once again, there are hardly any true left-wingers and never have been. Take trade unions, for example: yes, they're very supportive of social equality for their members, but are they equally supportive of social equality for management? Not to mention social equality for people who are not members but would like to learn one of the trades that are unionized? In my experience, unions do a very poor job with things like apprenticeship programs, because training new members means less job security for existing members.

Similarly, central planning in economics, which is supposed to promote more economic equality, ends up giving special privileges to the planners and those who are closely connected with them (like large financial institutions); witness the huge bailouts of investment banks after the crash of 2008, while ordinary people got foreclosed on. The closest thing to true left-wingers by this criterion are left-libertarians or anarchists (which, to be fair, the Wikipedia article does mention).

Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... plus c'est la même chose. The funny thing is that many conservatives think National Socialism was "socialism", when in fact it was just their very own hard right conservatism. Tea Party and Republican candidates are where the Hitlers of the future will probably arise from. > Down with immigration! Up with capital! Be a real American! Welcome to the past. Edit: I see the fascists have discovered my comment. Down v…

I'm continually astonished at the ultraconservative meme that Hitler was left-wing (which seems to originate with a book called 'Liberal Fascism' by Jonah Goldberg, although it has doubtless been floating around for much longer). Point out that one of the very first things that Hitler did on attaining power was have all the trade unionists arrested, and you might as well be talking to the air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_the_Soviet_Unio...

Both the extreme left and the extreme right are very much opposed to unions. Ergo making a difference between them on that basis seems impossible.

It worked on the other side of the fence as well : Nazi Germany restricted or outlawed trade and business organisation just as it did it unions. They went after the Church too. They restriced universities. They replaced or otherwise forced the management of large businesses to do their bidding too. Hell, they went after a number of soccer clubs.

And the Soviets did the same. Slightly different order, with the emphasis placed slightly differently, but the same result.

In general I'd say that extreme left and extreme right are both totalitarian ideologies and will not allow any form of authority or power to reside in any organisation other than their own. Left or right merely determines the order and the emphasis.

Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#114
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying that anyone who purges people who disagree, who exterminates and enslaves minorities, and who uses military thugs to achieve his ends, can't be left wing? Please enlighten us on your highly non-standard definition of "left wing".

> In left-right politics, left-wing politics are political positions or activities that accept or support social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics vs. > Right-wing politics are political positions or activities that view some forms of social hierarchy or social inequality as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable,…

The extermination of minorities is a very popular tactic amongst people supporting social equality. Just look at the French revolution, for an explicit example, if you don't think Pol Pot and the other communists are really left wing.

Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#115
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my original response I stated that National Socialism wasn't actually comprised of left wing socialists, but rather hard right fascists, and go on and on about how conservatives completely misrepresent this stuff all the time, and in the very next response to that comment, you do the exact same thing that I was lamenting? Ah yes the great "leftist" Mao, so "left" wing, he purged everyone who disagreed with him (Mc…

So you're saying that anyone who purges people who disagree, who exterminates and enslaves minorities, and who uses military thugs to achieve his ends, can't be left wing? Please enlighten us on your highly non-standard definition of "left wing".

> You can claim yourself to be a pacifist (left wing) all you want. But if your actions result in war (right wing), then you aren't a pacifist.

So you mean "left wing" is anything that leads to peace and "right wing" is anything that results in war. You may want to look up "tautology" or "circular reasoning".

By that standard a successful nuclear strike is left wing, and a failed one is right wing.

Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#116
post #33

Has anyone here actually read Mein Kampf? Doing so is probably banned in Germany and I am not sure what there is other than kiddie porn or some al-qaeda training manual that you totally would not want in your browsing history. There could come a time when no living person has read Mein Kampf and nobody would know first hand why it is wrong.

Yes, I have (yay protection of free speech!) and it is dreadfully boring. It is amazing though how it pretty much spells out exactly what he would end up doing once he took power, in all the horrid detail, and yet some politicians of the time believed that simple appeasement would work... As someone else here said, the lesson is that crazy people sometimes mean what they say, even when it sounds totally crazy.

But that is true of all such literature. The little Red Book, The Communist manifesto, Mein Kampf, the Quran, all of these books are boring to the point that despite their historical influence, and the massacres ascribed to them, it is a real struggle to get through them.

Well, at least most of them are really short.

Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... plus c'est la même chose. The funny thing is that many conservatives think National Socialism was "socialism", when in fact it was just their very own hard right conservatism. Tea Party and Republican candidates are where the Hitlers of the future will probably arise from. > Down with immigration! Up with capital! Be a real American! Welcome to the past. Edit: I see the fascists have discovered my comment. Down v…

I'm continually astonished at the ultraconservative meme that Hitler was left-wing (which seems to originate with a book called 'Liberal Fascism' by Jonah Goldberg, although it has doubtless been floating around for much longer). Point out that one of the very first things that Hitler did on attaining power was have all the trade unionists arrested, and you might as well be talking to the air.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not Belgium, but consider eastern Ukraine.

OK so any large nation that isn't Russia, China, Great Britain or the United States.

Just FYI Germany was providing training and equipment to the Chinese nationalists to fight at first against regional warlords and then the Japanese until 1941 when the tripartite pact was signed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-German_cooperation_until_1...

Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#119

From a timing perspective, this was published in March, 1940. Some other noteworthy events with their dates: * Germany invades Poland (September, 1939) * Britain, France, Canada, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany (September, 1939) * Soviets invade Poland, which is later split (October, 1939) * Nazis begin euthanasia of ill and disabled in Germany (October, 1939) * Soviets attack Finland (November, 1939…

It's amazing to me that, in all likelihood, had Hitler decided to call it quits earlier, the world would have sat back and allowed him to keep some of his conquests (eg Denmark, Norway or Belgium). Today it would be unthinkable to allow a large nation to invade Belgium with no counter international military response.

Pretty much what dragged the UK into WWI was the German violation of Belgiums neutrality.

Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)

#120
post #103
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conservatism doesn't send people to concentration camps Doesn't it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...

Last I checked, none of those things were due to conservatives alone, nor have they been any better, on balance, when liberals control the government than when conservatives do. (Israel's methods of dealing with Gaza probably come closest to being "run by conservatives", but even there the same things tend to happen when more moderate Israeli governments are in power.)

Democrat != Liberal. Liberals have not controlled the government in the U.S. (or Israel) for a very long time.
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