Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you know the next Hitler will come from the right wing? Left wing leaders have also racked up big death tolls purging and reordering society under the guise of progressive ideals. Mao's leadership led to the death of 45 million: http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/m... Stalin killed an estimated 20 million: http://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kil... Pol Pot killed 1.…
In my original response I stated that National Socialism wasn't actually comprised of left wing socialists, but rather hard right fascists, and go on and on about how conservatives completely misrepresent this stuff all the time, and in the very next response to that comment, you do the exact same thing that I was lamenting? Ah yes the great "leftist" Mao, so "left" wing, he purged everyone who disagreed with him (Mc…
George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
101–110 of 252 posts
Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think in the context of Spain, at least, the various versions of libertarian socialism saw themselves as that clearly distinguished. POUM had people who described themselves as "communist", "socialist", and "anarchist", some of whom were the same people. They specifically dissociated themselves from the Soviet Union (and more specifically from Stalin), but were largely supportive of some kind of non-authorita…
> I don't think in the context of Spain, at least, the various versions of libertarian socialism saw themselves as that clearly distinguished. I don't disagree. Reading in 'Homage' about the wide variety of affiliations and beliefs is really eye-opening, which is one reason I recommended it in my response to the (now deleted) comment above. However, it's just completely wrong from 2014 and with a view of the entire 2…
Homage is great. What I came away with was a profound sense of how ideology and labels are completely destructive to clear political understanding. This is really a running theme in Orwell's work. Once one identifies as a 'this' or a 'that' one becomes beholden to its leaders, or whomever might be wagging 'this' or 'that' dog.
His reference and definition of Trotskyism in Homage sticks with me the most. When Poum are labelled Trotskyists it's never made clear what Trotskyists actually are, only that they're bad, and somehow counter to goodness. This appears again in his discussion of how Stalin, American and British interests want Fascism to fail, but actually dread any real social revolution in Spain more than Fascism. So they're not willing to arm anarchists against Fascists. The eventual suppression of Poum and the anarchists by Communists loyal only to the USSR, ultimately ruins any chance the Republicans might have had.
It was a fascinating read, and it must be read by anyone interested in understanding the Spanish Civil war, or Orwell. One can see where Orwell got the idea for '2 legs bad, 4 legs good' --> '4 legs good, 2 legs better' in 'Animal Farm' from his experience in Spain.
This scene from chapter 10 sticks in my mind. Orwell is approached by a Communist friend and asked to join their unit. This is after Communist propoganda has started to paint the Poum as 'counter revolutionary'.
"I had to tell him that after this affair I could not join any Communist-controlled unit. Sooner or later it might mean being used against the Spanish working class. One could not tell when this kind of thing would break out again, and if I had to use my rifle at all in such an affair I would use it on the side of the working class and not against them. He was very decent about it. But from now on the whole atmosphere was changed. You could not, as before, 'agree to differ' and have drinks with a man who was supposedly your political opponent."
Orwell wants the reader to understand that these various 'isms' and 'ists' are extremely susceptible to internal corruption. No matter what their initial beliefs. In addition he strongly discouraged 'mealy mouthed' language, and imprecision. 'Doublespeak' from '1984' and his essay on 'Politics and the English Language' are all about this strongly held belief of his. He skill and precision at writing allowed him to more easily deconstruct propoganda, and he was frustrated by the misuse of language for political manipulation.
So any notion someone might have that Orwell was a 'this' or a 'that' is utter hogwash. He would never identify himself as anything, for he knew that once he did that something would alter its form to something terrible.
Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
Correct me if I am wrong, but conservatism doesn't have the social programs that Hitler had. Conservatism doesn't send people to concentration camps and then mass murder them. I think this thread has reached a Godwin level. Both may be right-wing but: Hitler supported abortion, gun control, big government, and other things the conservatives claim to be against. To simply say conservatives = Hitler because both are ri…
> Conservatism doesn't send people to concentration camps Doesn't it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...
Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
#104"However they may be as economic theories, Fascism and Nazism are psychologically far sounder than any hedonistic conception of life." This seems wrong (with hindsight, I suppose). My mental image of Orwell is that he was quite sharp. How did he manage to get this bit wrong so badly? Does anyone know the reason?
> This seems wrong (with hindsight, I suppose). Not that wrong. The whole passage tells more about how he meant it: that people don't just want ease and hedonism, but they also need struggle and passion and meaning and hurt. People that have it all too easy more often than not fell in for drugs, depression, etc. And conversely, some of the most "happiest" place on earth, according to their citizens own estimations in…
That's very far from my recollection of those polls where Scandinavian countries frequently come out on top. Common denominators of those countries include low wealth inequality, an extensive social safety net, and a grounded attitude towards the future. With all this, there's still plenty of struggle and passion and meaning and hurt in the microcosm of daily existence. Humans don't seem designed to be suspended in a state of constant happiness.
Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my original response I stated that National Socialism wasn't actually comprised of left wing socialists, but rather hard right fascists, and go on and on about how conservatives completely misrepresent this stuff all the time, and in the very next response to that comment, you do the exact same thing that I was lamenting? Ah yes the great "leftist" Mao, so "left" wing, he purged everyone who disagreed with him (Mc…
So you're saying that anyone who purges people who disagree, who exterminates and enslaves minorities, and who uses military thugs to achieve his ends, can't be left wing? Please enlighten us on your highly non-standard definition of "left wing".
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics
vs.
> Right-wing politics are political positions or activities that view some forms of social hierarchy or social inequality as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable, typically justifying this position on the basis of natural law or tradition.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics
Which one seems to be more favorable to enacting your statement:
> exterminates and enslaves minorities
The equality faction or the hierarchy faction?
Here is an analogy:
You can claim yourself to be a pacifist (left wing) all you want. But if your actions are aggressive and cause war (right wing), then you aren't a pacifist, even if you claim to be one.
Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Conservatism doesn't send people to concentration camps Doesn't it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...
Last I checked, none of those things were due to conservatives alone, nor have they been any better, on balance, when liberals control the government than when conservatives do. (Israel's methods of dealing with Gaza probably come closest to being "run by conservatives", but even there the same things tend to happen when more moderate Israeli governments are in power.)
Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
... plus c'est la même chose. The funny thing is that many conservatives think National Socialism was "socialism", when in fact it was just their very own hard right conservatism. Tea Party and Republican candidates are where the Hitlers of the future will probably arise from. > Down with immigration! Up with capital! Be a real American! Welcome to the past. Edit: I see the fascists have discovered my comment. Down v…
You're conflating several concepts with conservatism. Sure, there are branches of Conservative thoughts that intersect with National Socialism, but the very same thing can be said about social liberalism. In reality, however, neither side -- left or right -- in America is that close to the ideas of National Socialism. To suggest otherwise is either genuine ignorance or a weak attempt to score political points.
...
> False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. It would be the antonym of the mathematical concept of material equivalence.
...
> A common way for this fallacy to be perpetuated is one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
The party that attracts militias is probably not the same as the one that attracts pacifists.
Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's amazing to me that, in all likelihood, had Hitler decided to call it quits earlier, the world would have sat back and allowed him to keep some of his conquests (eg Denmark, Norway or Belgium). Today it would be unthinkable to allow a large nation to invade Belgium with no counter international military response.
Perhaps not Belgium, but consider eastern Ukraine.
Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you're saying that anyone who purges people who disagree, who exterminates and enslaves minorities, and who uses military thugs to achieve his ends, can't be left wing? Please enlighten us on your highly non-standard definition of "left wing".
> In left-right politics, left-wing politics are political positions or activities that accept or support social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics vs. > Right-wing politics are political positions or activities that view some forms of social hierarchy or social inequality as either inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable,…
Yes, and these are the positions Mao, Stalin, and Pol Pot took. They killed people using the justification that the people they killed were standing in the way of these ideals.
The next demagogue to rack of a massive body could could come from either the left or the right.
Re: George Orwell's review of Mein Kampf (1940)
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Stalin's genocide was larger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll Mao Zedong is believed to be responsible for 34,300,000–63,784,000 deaths and Joseph Stalin for 23,000,000–60,000,000.
Yea, Mao Ze Dong wasn't the same thing though. It's estimated as many as 60 million people died in China from hunger. Many others died from the civil war (Cultural Revolution). There may have been some genocide but the term doesn't apply as well as in Germany/Russia.