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Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

robert.ocallahan.org

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Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#271

Post by stephenr »

kybernetyk wrote: post #268
stephenr wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because on a comment thread about google's ever-increasing control over the web/etc, the following are irrelevant: * A court case about breaching US federal privacy laws * A court case about Google using it's relationship with device manufacturers to negatively impact a company with a competing service * An article about how Google tracks mobile users and the disclosure/notification about said tracking, with i…

Yes, it's interesting. Anything that is remotely critical of Google gets downvoted pretty quick here on HN. Now I don't know if it's because many Google employees browse HN or because people still believe in that "don't be evil" marketing babel.

As I said in another comment, google has reached cult status with a lot of tech people.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#273

Post by stephenr »

DCKing wrote: post #267
stephenr wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft sold their platforms for money. Microsoft never open sourced anything. Remind me when Internet Explorer or Hotmail or MSN/Bing was sold for money? > All of this "non-standard stuff" is open sourced. Show me where Chrome or Chrome OS are open source. Explain to me how Android can be considered open source when companies are forced to ship it with Google's services? > this "Google is the next Microsoft" mem…

You are twisting the argument. Their "extensions" to the web, each and everyone of them, is open source. Find me one of web projects that is not open source. They are giving their platforms away for free and are mostly open source. They compete for use of services . Microsoft used embrace, extend, extinguish. All of their platforms cost money. They compete(d) for use of platform . This is exactly why they are differe…

Firstly - to be the next something, you don't have to be exactly the same. If you are exactly the same, you are not the next one - you are the previous one, but late.

Secondly - as far as Google is concerned - their services ARE their platform. The browser/device used to be a "thin client", but once you start doing shit like putting remote desktop functionality into a browser, there is nothing "thin" about it. So now they have a server-side platform, and a client side beluga whale browser that makes their platform "work best".

Google's tactics in general terms are similar to Microsofts. They use their position in the market to (attempt to) introduce technologies that they control. Their continued (ab)use of the term "open source" is fairly standard for them now:

create/buy . announce/change it as "open source". nerds rejoice. release actual closed source product "based on" the open source version, with no way for user to verify the differences between the two.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#274

Post by personZ »

stephenr wrote: post #260
personZ wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't contribute to the discussion. It's a wall of noise hit list of entirely random quality, that draws absolute, nefarious conclusions from complex situations. If someone hates Google, then sure, it's "contributing". If you're just looking for information it's just extremist nonsense. Indeed, this very submission was already submitted a week ago (just as that hit list appeared before), and of course would have…

Right, because on a comment thread about google's ever-increasing control over the web/etc, the following are irrelevant: * A court case about breaching US federal privacy laws * A court case about Google using it's relationship with device manufacturers to negatively impact a company with a competing service * An article about how Google tracks mobile users and the disclosure/notification about said tracking, with i…

Sarcasm does not further a debate. If you want to froth at the mouth and show your agenda, sure, but not actually having constructive discussions.

Posting enormous gripe lists is not useful on any board, relevant or not, even minus the comically skewed narrative provided with them. In this case it wasn't even original but instead is a "create a puppet account and paste the complaint list again" tactic, which is just boorish and cowardly.

Go make a "whygoogleisevil.com" site and casually reference that in a legitimate post, sure, but not this.

And your whole "it's a cult" angle is ridiculous. If you convince yourself that people who find this strong polarization unconstructive must be in awe of Google, you have a very binary view of a complex world.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#275

Post by yohui »

stephenr wrote: post #202
DCKing wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter whether you can download the source for the devices you buy in the store. Not in the context of this discussion about vendor lock-in. You're using a red herring. The point is: if you don't like devices on sale with Chrome, Chrome OS or Android, you can download the source code and make it run on your own devices. Google really doesn't mind at all if you do that. The point is: Google doesn't profit f…

I was referring more to the fact that what Google says ("embrace the open web", "open source wins", etc) don't really mean shit. Chrome isn't open source, chromium is. What are the extra bits in chrome? My issue is not that google does what it does, my issue is the religious cult like status so many tech related people give google, in spite of their numerous and repeated attempts to control so many facts of the digit…

> Chrome isn't open source, chromium is. What are the extra bits in chrome?

https://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/ChromiumBrowserVsGoo...

Plus, if you're on Windows or Mac, the auto-updater for Chrome.

The most significant differences are probably that Chrome has oit-of-the-box support for AAC, H.264, MP3, and Flash that Chromium does not have (by default).

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#276

Post by yohui »

chimeracoder wrote: post #211
VikingCoder wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, if it's lock-in, they're handing out the keys. Android and Chrome are open source, and you can easily download all of your data out of most of their services.

> Android and Chrome are open source Chrome is not open source. Chromium is. This is not a pedantic point - a lot of things that work in Chrome are not available in Chromium, and that gap has been widening. AOSP is open source, but less and less of what people think of as Android is part of AOSP - a lot of core functionality has been moved into proprietary Play apps and Google services.

> a lot of things that work in Chrome are not available in Chromium, and that gap has been widening

Hpw so? The gap narrowed considerably recently when Google and Foxit open-sourced the PDF plugin. In terms of capabilities, the most visible differences are that Chrome supports a few additional media tags and Flash that Chromium does not, by default.

Chromium vs Chrome (on Linux): https://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/ChromiumBrowserVsGoo...

PDFium: https://code.google.com/p/pdfium/

HN discussion of PDFium: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7781878

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#277

Post by yohui »

lucb1e wrote: post #199
_cipher_ wrote: post #121

I'm calling bullshit. Firecrap will support HTML5 DRM. What kind of choice are you talking about? We have _no choice_ (well, except from way smaller projects, which doesn't matter. I can't see the majority of users using netsurf or some other cool project). Yes, I still use firefox from time to time, but the situation is getting worse. Instead of fixing older bugs, they keep adding new ones. Huge memory leaks and for…

> Firecrap will support HTML5 DRM. What kind of choice are you talking about? We have _no choice_ Though I agree with your basic argument, it must be noted that you have a choice to fork Firefox. You cannot do that with Chrome. Yeah everyone will start about Chromium but it's not equivalent. There is no sync, PDF viewer, Flash Player implementation, print system (and print preview), auto-updater, AAC, MP3 and Opus co…

> Yeah everyone will start about Chromium but it's not equivalent. There is no sync, PDF viewer, Flash Player implementation, print system (and print preview), auto-updater, AAC, MP3 and Opus codecs, and maybe other things I'm forgetting.

You may find the Chromium project's comparison helpful: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/ChromiumBrowserVsGoo...

As a matter of fact, Chromium does support open media formats such as Opus, and (now that Google and Foxit have open-sourced PDFium) Chromium has the same PDF viewing and print preview system that Chrome has long enjoyed.

PDFium: https://code.google.com/p/pdfium/

HN discussion of PDFium: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7781878

Both Chromium and Chrome allow you to sync your profile (bookmarks, extensions, etc.). The auto-updater is a difference on Windows and Mac, but not on Linux, where Chrome simply uses the same repository and package update systems other applications use.

It is true that Chromium does not, by default, come with Flash bundled or support proprietary media tags (AAC, H.264, and MP3), but the reason why that is the case should be clear.

If you do want Chrome's Flash plugin in Chromium, you only need to copy the file into your Chromium directory. There are even Linux repos that can keep it up-to-date for you.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#278

Post by _cipher_ »

lucb1e wrote: post #199
_cipher_ wrote: post #121

I'm calling bullshit. Firecrap will support HTML5 DRM. What kind of choice are you talking about? We have _no choice_ (well, except from way smaller projects, which doesn't matter. I can't see the majority of users using netsurf or some other cool project). Yes, I still use firefox from time to time, but the situation is getting worse. Instead of fixing older bugs, they keep adding new ones. Huge memory leaks and for…

> Firecrap will support HTML5 DRM. What kind of choice are you talking about? We have _no choice_ Though I agree with your basic argument, it must be noted that you have a choice to fork Firefox. You cannot do that with Chrome. Yeah everyone will start about Chromium but it's not equivalent. There is no sync, PDF viewer, Flash Player implementation, print system (and print preview), auto-updater, AAC, MP3 and Opus co…

> Though I agree with your basic argument, it must be noted that you have a choice to fork Firefox. You cannot do that with Chrome.

Except that in reality, no, you don't. Except if you are a team. And have funding. No one can possibly go through all those changes and apply them in a clean manner while having compatibility in mind. And even if that happens (waterfox), I (as a user) cannot trust them because I (and many more) don't have the time to search through all the commits to see what the fork is _actually_ doing (which in reality is just wasting time).

From one hand, I actually love how firefox is open and transparent and I trully believe the main devs and the whole project deserves so much more, but at the same time I consider many of their choices very poor and without thought.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#279

Post by _cipher_ »

stephenr wrote: post #170
_cipher_ wrote: post #121

I'm calling bullshit. Firecrap will support HTML5 DRM. What kind of choice are you talking about? We have _no choice_ (well, except from way smaller projects, which doesn't matter. I can't see the majority of users using netsurf or some other cool project). Yes, I still use firefox from time to time, but the situation is getting worse. Instead of fixing older bugs, they keep adding new ones. Huge memory leaks and for…

As opposed to bundling Flash player?

On a side note, I hope flash dies a painful and quick death.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#280

Post by _random_ »

stephenr wrote: post #185
_random_ wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Native Client avoids these issues by using sandboxing." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Native_Client

I never mentioned security. Their whole approach with both this and Dart are perfect examples of how they are following the old Microsoft playbook. "Your browser does not support Flash/Java/ActiveX/Bert and Ernie's latest bullshit, please upgrade to X to continue"

Dart is awesome! I hope they will come up with something that fixes all HTML & CSS warts as well.

Don't tell me technology doesn't thrive on competition. Pigeonholing everyone into same set of legacy languages is simply not OK! (no transpiling suggestions please - it's crap)

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