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Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

robert.ocallahan.org

191–200 of 316 posts

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, if it's lock-in, they're handing out the keys. Android and Chrome are open source, and you can easily download all of your data out of most of their services.

Android is open source in the same way that I can eat a cockroach. In theory, yes. In practice, you can forget about.

It doesn't matter whether you can download the source for the devices you buy in the store. Not in the context of this discussion about vendor lock-in. You're using a red herring.

The point is: if you don't like devices on sale with Chrome, Chrome OS or Android, you can download the source code and make it run on your own devices. Google really doesn't mind at all if you do that.

The point is: Google doesn't profit from "selling" Chrome, or profit from "selling" Android. It profits whenever Chrome is used, or it profits whenever Android is used (most of the time at least for both). Similarily, it profits whenever Firefox is used and whenever iOS is used (most of the time for both). Therefore, although Google likes that you use Chrome or Android to access their services, what it wants is just that you use their services regardless what platform you use.

It has no reason for it to desire a complete lock-in because their products are just means to an end, not ends in themselves.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#192
post #110

Developers, please stop making add-ons and extensions for Google products. You accelerate Google's domination and vendor lock-in when you do.

What are we to do? We build data visualization software, but firefox is REALLY slow at rendering SVG (so no d3 for us). We have a choice of asking our customers to run ie11 or chrome, since both run quickly. We would recommend firefox, since we really like the Mozilla foundation, but the performance of it is so bad we have to steer people away from it. It is a sad state of affairs.

[deleted]

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#194
post #110

Developers, please stop making add-ons and extensions for Google products. You accelerate Google's domination and vendor lock-in when you do.

What are we to do? We build data visualization software, but firefox is REALLY slow at rendering SVG (so no d3 for us). We have a choice of asking our customers to run ie11 or chrome, since both run quickly. We would recommend firefox, since we really like the Mozilla foundation, but the performance of it is so bad we have to steer people away from it. It is a sad state of affairs.

If you make software (which people want to use, of course) and notice a mainstream open source browser (in this case Firefox) being slow at something in particular, wouldn't it be advantageous to you and everyone else if some of you could briefly look under the hood to see what the problem is? Maybe not fix the bug, but at least let Mozilla know that there is a pain point somewhere (perhaps with specific source files or functions which take forever). Probably gets it fixed much faster as when you just keep using Chrome and disregard Firefox completely.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#195
Separate process tabs? Rendering and javascript speed? UI features? I know it's popular on HN to focus on technical features, but that entirely misses the point of this post.

Technical features will continue to improve over time. The browser that is "best" in any given area will change as the code evolves. Most of the other reasons to like a given browser are the subjective opinions we all have or the particular use cases we have in mind.

None of this matters. When comparing Firefox and Chrome, the substantive difference isn't which browser is faster or which browser uses less memory. The difference that matters is the power of monopoly and what their dominance means for our future. Supporting Chrome by using it is a vote in support of Google being able to dictate standards. Chrome already sends way too much data[1] for storage[2] and analysis.

Even worse, using Chrome instead of Firefox will eventually damage the Free Software[3] ecosystem. While most people focus one the availability of source code, barriers in interoperability is the more fastest and most effective way restrict both developer and user freedom. This is why the LGPLv2 puts a special restriction on static linking; you (usually) can't replace or modify the Free Software components unless they are dynamically linked[4]. We already see Google following Apple's lead in restricting phones. Do you really want the browser to end up with Android-style limitations[5]?

Even though I don't think it's a good idea to let anybody aggregate and analyze all the data we generate, I can respect the decision of someone who actually wants Google/Chrome to win over Firefox. I'm primarily suggesting that there are Big Issues going on around us and - intentional or not - there seems to be a lot of people being distracted by stuff that won't matter in the long run.

    "...we have to create the future, or others would do it for us."
        - Ivonova, B5/"Sleeping In Light"

[1] Firefox has problems here as well, unfortunately.

[2] Even if Prism and XKeyScore didn't exist, that data is still merely a subpoena or "national security letter" away from the NSA or any other branch of government.

[3] "Open Source" is not the same thing.

[4] (lack of) interoperability is also the problem a lot of us have with systemd. Too much focus on technical features that distracts from the threat to interoperability.

[5] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/android-and-users-freedom.htm...

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#196
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly. When I say that Firefox is the least crappy browser, I mean that all of the available browsers are crappy, and Firefox is simply the least crappy. I hesitate to say that it's the best browser, because that might lead to the mistaken belief that it's actually a good browser or that I like it, when in fact I don't. Does that clear things up?

I understand. I mean only that we all (me included) choose what we choose for reasons unrelated to the actual thing. For instance, the major browsers are buggy and annoying in largely non-overlapping ways. This makes it difficult to compare them - any checklist will be apples and oranges because features and bugs are orthogonal between them, to some degree. So we find ourselves offended by something in one of them, a…

I agree. Something about human nature, I expect.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#197
post #186

Ff fan here. Running Aurora on desktop, laptop and mobile. Love the project, have nothing but minor complains. Currently leading the list: For quite a while FF on Android has a 'broken' long press menu on links. Someone thought that it should be Share Link -> Open Link in New Tab Open Link in Private Tab Copy Link Bookmark Link I.. guess I don't understand how others use their browser. The last action doesn't make se…

> (bookmarking a link I haven't visited/open?), Yes, to read it later. I don't, but I know many people use it this way. > The first item annoys the hell out of me. It's not that huge to get around. I have yet to use any share button in any OS or application or website (I copy the link to chats or forums or where I need them if I want to share anything), but I don't really mind it either. Would love to see stats on ho…

Oh, I use the 'share' feature. For sites I'm looking at right now. In that case it is a prominent button right next to bookmark.

I haven't used those features on a random link (vs. page). Agreed, some telemetry about these features or the story behind those would be interesting.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#198

How can everyone--including O'Callahan--be giving Apple a free pass on this issue? Pointer events are a great example of Apple's obstructionism. The W3C tried for years to standardize touch events and Apple blocked them several times by claiming patent rights. Microsoft proposed pointer events, and everyone seems to agree that they are much better as a future standard and a way to unify pointer models, but Apple seem…

I didn't read that he was giving Apple a free pass, more like the lesser of 2 evils.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#199

I'm calling bullshit. Firecrap will support HTML5 DRM. What kind of choice are you talking about? We have _no choice_ (well, except from way smaller projects, which doesn't matter. I can't see the majority of users using netsurf or some other cool project). Yes, I still use firefox from time to time, but the situation is getting worse. Instead of fixing older bugs, they keep adding new ones. Huge memory leaks and for…

> Firecrap will support HTML5 DRM. What kind of choice are you talking about? We have _no choice_

Though I agree with your basic argument, it must be noted that you have a choice to fork Firefox. You cannot do that with Chrome.

Yeah everyone will start about Chromium but it's not equivalent. There is no sync, PDF viewer, Flash Player implementation, print system (and print preview), auto-updater, AAC, MP3 and Opus codecs, and maybe other things I'm forgetting.

If you want to fork Chrome, you'll have to build all of that yourself. If you fork Firefox, you get the whole deal and you can really make it the way you want it to be while staying up-to-date with upstream patches.

Re: Choose Firefox Now, Or Later You Won't Get A Choice

#200
I read this and said, yep, let's switch for all my home surfing. Nevertheless, I only use my iPad for browsing at home (running Chrome). As soon as I went to the Mozilla site to download Firefox for iOS, I realized Apple is blocking it. I can only imagine what would happen if Microsoft blocked Chrome from installing on Windows. It is time for some laws to be made around this topic.
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