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A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

guidetojapanese.org

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Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#11

Post by rgrieselhuber »

brianobush wrote: post #9
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #6

Reminds me of Japanese: The Spoken Language, which is what I used to learn Japanese. It's quite challenging at first but I can't think of a better way for an adult to learn the language well.

I am going to knock this because I used it. Problem: the written part of Japanese. You read this book and learn how to talk a bit, take a plane to Japan, then bam - surrounded by the visually amazing, but daunting Kanji. The Jorden school of thought totally disregards the written and focuses on the spoken. That is fine, but the wrong path to real Japanese fluency. The best way to start learning Japanese is to get int…

This is a long-standing debate. :-)

I do agree that people who use this approach are behind others in reading / writing performance. Indeed, it took me awhile to catch up. But fortunately this is something you can pick up on your own fairly well.

On the flip side, to be brutally honest, 99% of the people (that I've met anyway) who come through programs that focus on reading / writing sound horrible when they speak. They tend to suck at grammar, their intonation is all wrong and have a very hard time creating complex sentences. It could just be the sampling that I've interacted with but I can always tell the difference immediately between a JSL student and someone who focused on reading / writing.

Why is this important? It depends on your job / life but I personally spend my most important moments interacting with people via speech, not text. I'd much rather create a strong impression in person up front. It makes all the difference.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#12

Post by gchucky »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #6

Reminds me of Japanese: The Spoken Language, which is what I used to learn Japanese. It's quite challenging at first but I can't think of a better way for an adult to learn the language well.

Sorry, I gotta disagree with you. Learning Japanese using an antiquated romaji system (si vs shi, etc.) and not learning any kana or kanji won't get you very far. What good is that when show up in Japan and can't read any of the signs around you?

I saw Eleanor Jorden (writer of JSL) talk at Cornell, and a kid in the audience asked, "I opened a book and saw a bunch of squiggly lines!" To throw out a language's native written system is folly.

We used the Genki bookset in school, and it worked pretty well.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#13

Post by bemmu »

mullr wrote: post #5
caffeine wrote: post #4

Brilliant! Where was this all my life? I only wish he would deconstruct Kanji and the resulting combinatorial explosion in the same way...

Use this: http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Complete-Japanese-Ch... And this: http://kanji.koohii.com/ The problem becomes tractable, and maybe even a little friendly. Fwiw, the explosion isn't really combinatorial. It'd better if it was, because at least that would be predictable. No, it's best though of as entirely irregular combinations of a medium-sized number of components. But the aforementioned resources…

This always seems to come up whenever Japanese is mentioned. Just to balance this, RTK is not for everyone, personally I am having more luck with repeating kanji while seeing them in context in written material.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#14

Post by mullr »

bemmu wrote: post #13
mullr wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use this: http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Complete-Japanese-Ch... And this: http://kanji.koohii.com/ The problem becomes tractable, and maybe even a little friendly. Fwiw, the explosion isn't really combinatorial. It'd better if it was, because at least that would be predictable. No, it's best though of as entirely irregular combinations of a medium-sized number of components. But the aforementioned resources…

This always seems to come up whenever Japanese is mentioned. Just to balance this, RTK is not for everyone, personally I am having more luck with repeating kanji while seeing them in context in written material.

Of course, do what works for you. It's different for everybody It's just that those of us who like RTK really like it, and we want to talk about it and tell everybody we know. It's a Kathy Sierra kind of thing.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#15

Post by altxwally »

keyist wrote: post #3

Thanks mbrubeck, great reference. I highly recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Step-Innovative-Approach-Spea... as another excellent resource. Written by an engineer for engineers, with detailed flow charts for the various conjugation rules and other aspects of the grammar. The book lists the various common sentence structures then teaches you how to expand the various fragments to construct more comp…

The best books I've read regarding learning japaenese are 'Making Sense of Japanese Grammar'. I recommend it a lot. http://www.amazon.com/Making-Sense-Japanese-Grammar-Paper/dp...

If it weren't for that book I would have never understood why there are so many exceptions with verbs regarding the whole intransitive and transitive thing.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#16

Post by rgrieselhuber »

gchucky wrote: post #12
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #6

Reminds me of Japanese: The Spoken Language, which is what I used to learn Japanese. It's quite challenging at first but I can't think of a better way for an adult to learn the language well.

Sorry, I gotta disagree with you. Learning Japanese using an antiquated romaji system (si vs shi, etc.) and not learning any kana or kanji won't get you very far. What good is that when show up in Japan and can't read any of the signs around you? I saw Eleanor Jorden (writer of JSL) talk at Cornell, and a kid in the audience asked, "I opened a book and saw a bunch of squiggly lines!" To throw out a language's native…

See my other comment. I would be willing to bet that more top performers under the JSL system compared with top performers under a reading / writing focused system will end up being much more successful in careers / life in Japanese society.

Japanese people take for granted that Kanji is hard and are forgiving when Westerners aren't that great at it, but it's painfully hard to listen to someone speak with non-native intonation and poor grammar.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#17

Post by brianobush »

donw wrote: post #10
brianobush wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't upvote this enough. I went from 200-300 Kanji characters that I acquired painfully to now 2053 Kanji characters using RTK in about four months. I use Anki ( http://ichi2.net/anki/ ) to do reviews, but the Kanji koohii site is awesome for stories and has a nice active forum. I keep track of my progress here: http://kd7yhr.blogspot.com/

Are you learning just the meanings, or the meanings, kunyomi, and onyomi? I ask, because I'm somewhere in between ２級 and １級 with the JLPT, and since I've only spent a collective six months in Japan, it's a bit of a struggle sometimes to retain vocabulary. I'm finding that I have a very easy time with the meanings, and so I can figure out new compounds pretty easily. For example, in the novel I'm reading last night, 脱…

at first, I focused on production of kanji from a keyword, e.g., discuss -> 談, at this point there is no Japanese and I spent four months getting through all the kanji. I still test daily and have gone through 21k kanji tests.

Currently, I am reading みんなの日本語 wherein I am focusing on sentence mining and grammar. My current deck of sentences is around 800 sentences that I review as well, wherein I review recognition and speak out loud. My level is currently in between basic to low-intermediate. In the sentence mining I learn the readings of the kanji in context and could care less about kunyomi/onyomi, e.g.,幼稚園 -> ようちえん (or infancy-immature-park in RTK keywords).

The method I am using is summarized at: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com I don't follow it all, but some of it is good.

I studied Japanese for 12 years half-assed never getting anywhere. For the first time I am making progress and I have a plan (which is the part that I lacked before).

BTW, to retain vocabulary, I would recommend Anki http://ichi2.net/anki/ it is open and regularly updated.

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#18

Post by brianobush »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #11
brianobush wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am going to knock this because I used it. Problem: the written part of Japanese. You read this book and learn how to talk a bit, take a plane to Japan, then bam - surrounded by the visually amazing, but daunting Kanji. The Jorden school of thought totally disregards the written and focuses on the spoken. That is fine, but the wrong path to real Japanese fluency. The best way to start learning Japanese is to get int…

This is a long-standing debate. :-) I do agree that people who use this approach are behind others in reading / writing performance. Indeed, it took me awhile to catch up. But fortunately this is something you can pick up on your own fairly well. On the flip side, to be brutally honest, 99% of the people (that I've met anyway) who come through programs that focus on reading / writing sound horrible when they speak. T…

Agreed and yes, you must focus on the language as a spoken form and written form. So I am not advocating reading only, but Kanji must be overcome and the best time to do it is NOW.

I studied Japanese for many years and always had the Kanji wall. It was daunting and hindered my progress. In the end, it made Japanese seem mysterious and not really possible for western-minds to grasp.

I used RTK and got through Kanji in four months, now I focus on sentences and reading wherein I speak out loud while reading. I also speak with my family in Japanese as much as possible (this is my primary reason for studying).

In the end, you must treat the language as a living language and understand all forms it is presented in. But, you already get this point, just saying it for others. :)

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#19

Post by brianobush »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #16
gchucky wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I gotta disagree with you. Learning Japanese using an antiquated romaji system (si vs shi, etc.) and not learning any kana or kanji won't get you very far. What good is that when show up in Japan and can't read any of the signs around you? I saw Eleanor Jorden (writer of JSL) talk at Cornell, and a kid in the audience asked, "I opened a book and saw a bunch of squiggly lines!" To throw out a language's native…

See my other comment. I would be willing to bet that more top performers under the JSL system compared with top performers under a reading / writing focused system will end up being much more successful in careers / life in Japanese society. Japanese people take for granted that Kanji is hard and are forgiving when Westerners aren't that great at it, but it's painfully hard to listen to someone speak with non-native…

Actually Japanese know it is hard, and focus on it like madmen. A top Nintendo DS game for adults in Japan is a Kanji re-training game.

In any case, Kanji is so visual - until I learned it many words didn't make sense to me. Knowing how to say it, but not understanding the real-underlying meaning is not fun.

As far as intonation, Japanese is one of the easiest languages with regards to that. Once you get the basics it is simple, but still you must talk with others (Japanese club, co-workers, neighbors, skype, etc) and listen to real Japanese (anime, news, etc.)

Re: A Japanese language guide for analytical thinkers

#20

Post by joeminkie »

Thanks for this link.

I took ~3 years of Japanese (using Japanese for Busy People I - III) but I'm definitely not as far along as I'd like to be.

This is the best replacement for a ~$300 electronic dictionary on the iPhone I've found so far: http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftwa... (iTunes link). As it's been said, learning to speak vs. learning to read is a whole different story.

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