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Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

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41–50 of 83 posts

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#41
The reason why it's so expensive for startups to even consider defending themselves is because attorney fees are supra-competitive and corporations cannot represent themselves in court pro se according to Local Rules, such as Civil Local Rule 3-9(b) in the Northern District of California. Whether through (absurd) precedent or rules codifying that precedent, it's been that way for 200 years.

However, it shouldn't be that way anymore--not after Citizens United. I'm fighting a lawsuit about this issue right now, and if I win (however unlikely), corporations will be able to represent themselves against patent trolls.

Is it difficult, confusing and complex work? Yes. Is it any harder than programming, or anything else a serious startup would do? Not really. And it beats paying a law firm six or seven figures.

The case is:

http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/29himg3wm/california-northe...

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#42

> The patent behind all these lawsuits is not particularly innovative. It claims something about sending notifications after an emergency phone call. Here’s the gist from one of the figures . . . . This is a little disingenuous. You know the patent doesn't cover the "gist" or any particular figure. It covers the claims (which you don't mention at all, even in passing). And for some reason, you don't even tell us what…

Primary sources are always useful, but so is some context from the writer. Reading the patent and the recent SCOTUS opinion, Alice v Cls Bank, it definitely looks to be invalid in the context of software implementation. I wouldn't call the writer "disingenuous." It would be difficult to argue for fee shifting as an exceptional case, because there has been only a few recent decisions and not consistent precedent yet.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#43
I wonder if this model can work with the criminal justice system as well. Quite often, defendants feel it is better to accept a plea deal even when they have done nothing wrong because the economics of fighting a lawsuit (as well as the outcome in case of a botched up defense) makes it compelling to accept the accept the plea deal. The mechanism is analogous to the patent troll scenario. If law school students can take up these "troll equivalent" cases, they gain valuable experience and defendants get a fair shot.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#44
I'm surprised there isn't an EFF-like non-profit that provides pro-bono patent defense to start-ups, against patent trolls. I would donate to that organization.

I've seen a lot of horseshit patents asserted against start-ups. If there was an organization that followed the troll around and offered defense services against all of their defendants, it would make trolling a lot harder, and might reduce the numbers of these parasitic lawyers involved in this shameless trade.

I just read about a Fish & Richardson patent partner who started filing his own "inventions" with the patent office, based on slight modifications of the patents he was filing for clients, and then sold those patents to trolls for huge sums. Its actually really easy to write patents focused on sabotaging your clients, if you are a lawyer and become familiar with their future roadmaps.

I know a bunch of trivial claims I could write right now and they would be worth a few million in a couple years, because Google, Facebook, and others would have to move in that direction in a few years (related to Machine Learning and image recognition).

All you have to do is follow conferences, understand the papers, and then write some trivial, and obvious evolutions of those techniques. Obviousness is something defendant's find extremely difficult to prove for highly complex technology, because the juries are made of people that have no idea what programming is, much less Machine Learning, and the judge is probably some moron, that thinks he is really smart, and assumes that he patent office is full of diligent geniuses ... and so he will give a lot of weight to the plaintiff's "USPTO certified" claims.

All it takes is for a programmer to be involved in one patent litigation and you see the patent system for what it is. A colossal system of giant, continuous, expensive injustice implemented in the hope of preventing an extremely rare form of injustice (when a true original inventor is cheated by a shameless larger company).

Imagine we institute an expensive system of highly trained commandos to follow every nerd in America around in high schools across the country, to protect them from bullying and to be their friends. It would certainly stop all physical bullying. But would it be worth the giant overhead/expense?

That is what we have to start asking ourselves. Even if the patent system prevents some rare injustices, WTF, is this continuous, and overwhelming cloud of uncertainty for every start-up and company worth it?

I feel like China and India are doing quite alright without overburdensome strong patent protection. And Europe seems fine with a hamstrung software patent system. And even in the US, Microsoft, Oracle, Adobe, IBM, and Apple got their start before software became patentable ... and they all did, and are doing fine.

If you see someone arguing for patents, they are almost always some fucking lawyer, troll, or someone sitting on a giant portfolio. The people actually making software every day don't want this shit system. VCs that fund start-ups, don't want it ... even though you would expect they want it, to protect their investments.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#45

I'm surprised there isn't an EFF-like non-profit that provides pro-bono patent defense to start-ups, against patent trolls. I would donate to that organization. I've seen a lot of horseshit patents asserted against start-ups. If there was an organization that followed the troll around and offered defense services against all of their defendants, it would make trolling a lot harder, and might reduce the numbers of the…

> I'm surprised there isn't an EFF-like non-profit that provides pro-bono patent defense to start-ups, against patent trolls

Such an organization might be eligible for tax-exempt non-profit status as a trade group, but it doesn't seem likely that a firm dedicated to providing services to a particular class of for-profit business would qualify as a 501c3 with tax-deductible donations.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#46

I'm surprised there isn't an EFF-like non-profit that provides pro-bono patent defense to start-ups, against patent trolls. I would donate to that organization. I've seen a lot of horseshit patents asserted against start-ups. If there was an organization that followed the troll around and offered defense services against all of their defendants, it would make trolling a lot harder, and might reduce the numbers of the…

Firstly, your implication that patents are only supposed to protect the weak from the strong is incorrect. That is a common ex post-facto rationalization of patents, but not the only one. Simply preventing copying by a competitor, regardless of size, is perfectly fine.

Even then, empirical evidence suggests that the use of patents by small firms against large ones is not as "extremely rare" as you think it is. From http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1396319:

"... public and large private companies initiated 42% of all lawsuits studied, 28% of the time against other large companies... 4% of the suits were initiated by individual inventors (David v. Goliath), 18% of the suits were brought by small private companies against public or large private ones (small v. large), 16% pit one small- or medium-sized company against another (limited stakes), and in 8% a large firm sued a small one (predation profile)."

So at least 22% of lawsuits involve a "small guy vs big guy" scenario. But considering that trolls (who, surprisingly, file a relative minority of suits, the study finds) often buy patents from individual inventors / small companies who cannot litigate themselves, that number may likely be higher. Now this says nothing about the merits of the lawsuits, but there certainly are a lot of small firms taking on bigger firms.

Now setting aside your strawman that the intended use is only small vs big, at least two-thirds of the time patents are used by operating firms against a comparably sized or larger firm. That indicates that the majority of the time the system is not being abused, even if you make the questionable assumption that all big vs small and troll suits are completely meritless.

> I feel like China and India are doing quite alright without overburdensome strong patent protection.

Really? I don't see many notable technical innovations come out of those countries, and I say this as a citizen of one of them. They are very good at reproducing technology, no doubt, but invention is rare.

> And Europe seems fine with a hamstrung software patent system.

If there's one thing the smartphone wars showed us, it's that other countries have software patents of similar quality as the US. The litigation environment is very different, though.

Also, citation on the Fish & Richardson lawyer? IANAL, but that sounds like shenanigans that could lead to disbarment.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#47

> The patent behind all these lawsuits is not particularly innovative. It claims something about sending notifications after an emergency phone call. Here’s the gist from one of the figures . . . . This is a little disingenuous. You know the patent doesn't cover the "gist" or any particular figure. It covers the claims (which you don't mention at all, even in passing). And for some reason, you don't even tell us what…

> You know the patent doesn't cover the "gist" or any particular figure. It covers the claims

It seems like whenever anyone criticizes a patent by summarizing it, someone points out that the patent is defined by the claims, but if anyone criticizes a patent by reading the claims, someone points out that the claims have to be read in the context of the rest of the patent.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#48

I'm surprised there isn't an EFF-like non-profit that provides pro-bono patent defense to start-ups, against patent trolls. I would donate to that organization. I've seen a lot of horseshit patents asserted against start-ups. If there was an organization that followed the troll around and offered defense services against all of their defendants, it would make trolling a lot harder, and might reduce the numbers of the…

Firstly, your implication that patents are only supposed to protect the weak from the strong is incorrect. That is a common ex post-facto rationalization of patents, but not the only one. Simply preventing copying by a competitor, regardless of size, is perfectly fine. Even then, empirical evidence suggests that the use of patents by small firms against large ones is not as "extremely rare" as you think it is. From h…

Small entities filing lawsuits is good because it means small entities are using patents. Large entities filing lawsuits is good because it means large entities are using patents. The underlying assumption is that patent litigation is a good thing for the plaintiffs involved. It's like trying to use the number of patents issued to measure the innovation attributable to patents.

Litigation isn't a sign of success, it's a systemic failure leading to an enormous waste of resources. Meanwhile the notion that trolls don't comprise a large percentage of the actual litigation is entirely unsurprising since their business model is to offer an out of court settlement in an amount that compares favorably with the cost of successfully defending a lawsuit.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#49
Isn't there a potential startup in here? The judicial process follows clear and distinct steps, with clear and distinct documents for every step. It seems like much of this can be automated as much as the trolls automate their process?

Question 1: has the lawsuit been filed in an odd/irrelevant place? Followed by some subquestions to be more precise. If so, fill out this form, include the addresses of .. and ... and we'll send a form letter to them for you, asking for a dismissal.

Question 2-5: keep stalling and asking for dismissals based on various reasons.

Question 6-10: try some other ways to get the troll to drop it, for instance by presenting an example of obvious prior art

Of course all letter include repeating references to relevant higher court decisions.

Re: Law Students Fend Off a Patent Troll

#50

THESE PEOPLE DESERVE CREDIT: - Prof. Jonathan Askin - @jaskin - runs the clinic, and trusted us to try this experiment. - Maegan Fuller - @mafuller21 - did the lion's share of research and writing. Brilliant and dedicated student. She just took the bar exam. - Jorge Torres - @jorgemtorres - Guy who actually knows patent litigation. Too bad he dropped out of law to be a VC. Pitch him :-)

The judge crossed out the 'with' and wrote in 'without' prejudice on the note.

Does that mean that if the troll tries this on with someone else, this case can't be cited? Just wondering.

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