Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#61

Post by brightsize » Tue, Aug 12, 2014, 8:30 PM UTC

dfxm12 wrote: post #59

brightsize wrote: post #56

I have no experience with big-name tech megacorps, my career has been with startups and small companies mostly. As a non-young person who's looking for something new at a small startup, my feeling is that age discrimination is clearly a thing, but it's not (just) a function of expected compensation, skillset, or willingness to work insane hours. My feeling is that, while you're expected to fit the profile in those ar…

When I go on a job interview, I'm interviewing the company as much as they are interviewing me. I've turned down a handful of job offers because their "workplace culture" wasn't what I was looking for. Some were way too dry, some were too much like what you describe above. Of course, I'm not near an SF/NYC/Berlin type of "scene" though. Is the problem that every good job opening in these hotbeds is with a start up th…

I can't of course say that every startup company has this sort of culture, but my impression is that most small tech companies in startup hotbeds lean in the direction I describe. The sort of startups that catch my attention seem either to have such cultures or be straining to have them. They seem to think that hipster/dorm atmosphere is important for recruiting (the kind of people they want – 23 year-olds) and actively strive to create, maintain, and advertise it.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#62

Post by tmp1234519029 » Tue, Aug 12, 2014, 8:48 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #29

adambratt wrote: post #16

I've worked in a few different industries that are traditionally a lot more corporate than most startups. Most notably, finance. What I've noticed is that while these companies tend to have older tech guys than you'll find at a lot of startups, it's still a lot younger age-wise than the rest of the business. I think part of it is that the number of young people who were in tech 20 years ago compared to now was much s…

I am just about to turn 40. Been developing software for 11 and a half years professionally. I realise that I am a lot better developer than I was a while ago. Actually I have seen a lot more problems, and I have a good idea what will work two months down the line, and what will be a constant fire fighting exercise due to a half though through design. How do I get this across to employers? All they seem interested is…

The typical interview in the silicon valley goes like this:

him: you're coding netflix, which db you use?

you: [insert any relational db name here]

him: but what if you have a gazillion users?

you: ok ok, i'll use mongodb (sigh)

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#63

Post by brightsize » Tue, Aug 12, 2014, 9:07 PM UTC

I'm reminded of an amusing encounter in Berlin. I went to meet a seemingly promising proto-startup, one associated with a prominent accelerator, at their well-known coworking space. I was interested in their CTO spot and had plenty of relevant experience. I could tell from the first handshake that my potential non-tech counterpart was not exactly amused by my lack of youth, which, as everyone knows, is crucial to CTO success. I was dressed the part - the standard-issue German uniform of polo shirt & jeans, nothing off-putting there. At some point not far into the meeting, he asked me what my GPA was. I kid you not. I graduated from a well-respected school, decades ago, have a long track record with startups, keep up to date on tech, but he emphatically wanted to know my GPA. I scratched my head and guessed, upon which he asked if that put me in the top 5% of graduates at the school. Color me mystified: not only did they not tell us that sort of thing upon graduation, I could not imagine why he would think it important. Not only did he think it important, he informed me, gesturing through the glass partition at the worker bees, "most of the people we hire are in the top 5% of their classes", and that was just something I should know. It seemed obvious that knowing one's GPA and class standing was a gating factor: it screened out both those who could not claim to be “elite”, but also those with enough age and experience for whom school performance had long ago become irrelevant.

I found it disturbing how much the Berlin startup community deifies SV, attempts to ape it, and maybe this encounter was just one facet of that. In general my impression was that Berlin companies seemed to be less inclined toward age discrimination than US ones, but I would be interested in hearing other opinions on that.

Edit: typo

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#64

Post by robmarkg » Tue, Aug 12, 2014, 9:27 PM UTC

Wow - these are wonderful comments everyone - even the ones I don't agree with all that much. This post has had almost 4000 views since this morning - that is huge for me. The point I really want to drive home here though, is that even if you think there are "issues" with older workers, do you also believe these companies should be suppressing this data? As I said, it seems to me to be too much of a coincidence that three different tech companies would independently decide to leave this data out, unless they were hiding something. I think "transparency" is a base value among members of Hacker News, and I appreciate the support I have gotten for writing this.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#65

Post by lotsofmangos » Tue, Aug 12, 2014, 10:29 PM UTC

ashwinaj wrote: post #60

lotsofmangos wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. It is amusing that after observing that older folk employed at the same company seem to be taking it easier compared to the average, ashwinaj uses this observation to partially justify age discrimination on the basis that the older people look like they are putting in less effort, when these are the same set of people who have been successful at staying with the company. Perhaps the company actually…

Well, you can nitpick my comment, pick outliers and twist my words (I never said I justify age discrimination - I merely said it is a fact of life) but readers here are smarter than that :)

You do not need to explicitly say that you support a given position to be able to make a statement that supports a given position.

The statement - "there are a lot of slackers and you guessed it, they're usually (emphasis on "usually", stop trolling) older, paper pushers" - clearly, in the plain meaning of the words, supports age discrimination without requiring any further clarification on your part, and does so even if you did not mean it to.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#66

Post by ashwinaj » Tue, Aug 12, 2014, 11:32 PM UTC

lotsofmangos wrote: post #65

ashwinaj wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you can nitpick my comment, pick outliers and twist my words (I never said I justify age discrimination - I merely said it is a fact of life) but readers here are smarter than that :)

You do not need to explicitly say that you support a given position to be able to make a statement that supports a given position. The statement - "there are a lot of slackers and you guessed it, they're usually (emphasis on "usually", stop trolling) older, paper pushers" - clearly, in the plain meaning of the words, supports age discrimination without requiring any further clarification on your part, and does so eve…

Explicitly stating != implying Oh BTW, I learned this from the older folks in my company :)

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#67

Post by robmarkg » Wed, Aug 13, 2014, 12:09 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #26

sxp wrote: post #10

>This latest report by Linkedin is where it hit me – something smells fishy about this. It is just too much of a coincidence that three of the major tech companies have issued almost identical “diversity” reports, and all three have been missing something screamingly obvious – any mention at all of age, or even an explanation as to why it is missing. This almost seems like collusion, it is almost certainly a cover up…

I don't understand your comment. The survey may have formed the basis for the diversity reports, but it shouldn't be difficult to supplement them with age data, since the companies already have the information.

Thanks EC - I didn't understand his point either but I expected it - that a self appointed spokesperson for these huge tech companies will try to invent some reason why they cant get this data. Of course they can - that data is readily available. The "someone who needs to do more research" it the person who made the comment - because his "research" attempt to find a reason to discredit this failed, though I am sure there will be more by apologists for this kind of behavior. If there really is some legal reason why summary statistics on employee age data can't be released, I still have never heard of it.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#68

Post by sxp » Wed, Aug 13, 2014, 12:50 AM UTC

robmarkg wrote: post #67

enraged_camel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your comment. The survey may have formed the basis for the diversity reports, but it shouldn't be difficult to supplement them with age data, since the companies already have the information.

Thanks EC - I didn't understand his point either but I expected it - that a self appointed spokesperson for these huge tech companies will try to invent some reason why they cant get this data. Of course they can - that data is readily available. The "someone who needs to do more research" it the person who made the comment - because his "research" attempt to find a reason to discredit this failed, though I am sure t…

I'm not trying to justify the companies' decision to not release the age data. I'm just pointing out that there is no collusion as originally claimed. All the companies disclosed data based on the government survey which is why their reporting categories look so similar.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#69

Post by collyw » Wed, Aug 13, 2014, 8:37 AM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #40

collyw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just about to turn 40. Been developing software for 11 and a half years professionally. I realise that I am a lot better developer than I was a while ago. Actually I have seen a lot more problems, and I have a good idea what will work two months down the line, and what will be a constant fire fighting exercise due to a half though through design. How do I get this across to employers? All they seem interested is…

Start consulting or doing independent contractor work? Apply to Fog Creek software or Trello, and let us know whether the reality is as good as the marketing?

I am based in Spain. The job market for senior developers is a bit tougher here.

Re: Age Discrimination in Silicon Valley

#70

Post by collyw » Wed, Aug 13, 2014, 8:40 AM UTC

adambratt wrote: post #53

collyw wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just about to turn 40. Been developing software for 11 and a half years professionally. I realise that I am a lot better developer than I was a while ago. Actually I have seen a lot more problems, and I have a good idea what will work two months down the line, and what will be a constant fire fighting exercise due to a half though through design. How do I get this across to employers? All they seem interested is…

Come work with us! We're growing fast and love people with lots of experience. careers@benzinga.com

Would you consider remote? I am a Django dev (at the moment) and have experience in the financial sector, but I am based in Barcelona.