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Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

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Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#341
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>units of measure are not "tools"...they are ways of communicating information. How you communicate information is important and has real impacts. Given a graph, you could choose to encode it as an adjacency matrix or as a collection of adjacency lists. Both convey the same information, but nobody would say we should pick one and only one. I disagree with the assertion that measurement units aren't tools or that they…

>Sure, the Mars incident is a call for consistency, but it's a call for consistency inside NASA. No its not. Realistically space travel is going to be a humanity as a whole deal, not "inside NASA". Remember that the USA is like 4% of the world population. Even if the US contributes 10x more than everyone else per person that still puts the US in the minority. Consistency here is not a "nice to have"...its mission cri…

> No its not. Realistically space travel is going to be a humanity as a whole deal, not "inside NASA".

I think it's a fair bet that when spaceflight becomes widespread and commonplace, we're going to have many discrete groups of people developing, producing, operating, and maintaining their own particular spacecraft independently of each other, and not "humanity as a whole", as a singular undifferentiated mass, working on a single uniform spaceflight project.

Consistency within a specific project is clearly necessary; uniformity among distinct projects is, speaking at the macro level, a liability. Variation is an evolutionary advantage; artificial uniformity slows progress.

> So you propose teaching your future carpenters and space engineers different units of measure?

Why would this even be a question? Should programmers only be familiar with one single programming language? Should people in general only ever learn to speak a single verbal language? Is there ever an advantage to only being familiar with a single set of tools, and ignorant of all others?

> Nobody is eyeballing anything in the modern world.

Most people are eyeballing most things in the modern world. It's only in the case of activities on the scale of building spaceships and 10-nm-process integrated circuits that people require the level of precision that you're talking about. The vast majority of human activity remains outside of these domains.

The original article was about American resistance to adopting metric units as a default practice in day-to-day life, and not about the use of the metric system by people engaged in highly specialized disciplines. It'd be a bit absurd to suggest that the measuring units selected for high-precision work by the small set of people currently working on microprocessor design are necessarily the optimal ones for e.g. baking a cake or tiling your bathroom. In the latter use cases, one could make a very compelling case that units optimized for alignment with intuition are vastly more useful than ones optimized for micro-scale precision.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#342
post #99
post #89

I am not anti-metric by any means, but having done carpentry a lot in the past it always strikes me when this comes up that one of the central arguments for (a limited use-case of) the imperial system is usually glossed over: the fact that in many crafts (especially historically), using base-12 makes certain things much easier. It divides into 3rds far more easily, divides into 4ths slightly more easily, and still di…

>a rational practical reason for sticking in some cases to Imperial units That to me is the worst of both worlds. The optimal solution is to use one consistent system and the winner is pretty clear. >carpentry Certainly. The future is full of 3D printers though.

[deleted]

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#343
The biggest liability of the metric system to me is its system of unit prefixes: this is just a bizarre reimplementation of scientific notation that expresses the most significant quantitative information not as part of the actual quantitative component of its notation, but as an arcane verbal prefix attached to the name of the thing being counted.

What on earth is the advantage of a notation that makes it easy to scale a value by an order of magnitude without having to alter its numeric representation?

This seems to be a much more significant "WTF" of the metric system than the fact that its base units don't seem to have any meaningful anchor in any substantive context.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#344

> Well, to be fair, those anti-metric folks had at least one point in their favor: Customary measures make a lot more sense to us. The author is full of it. Whichever system you grew up with will seem natural to you. This misconception comes up time and time again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7821501 The article seems like fluff; the author isn't even making novel mistakes. He even says that the metric syste…

> The author is full of it. Whichever system you grew up with will seem natural to you.

This seems to be a reinforcement of the point you quoted, and not a refutation of it.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#345
post #274
post #6

I wish the article had touched on temperature systems; I feel like Celsius is metric at its weakest. Farenheit has beautiful bands: 0's: So cold you have trouble doing anything and just want to warm up immediately 10's: Wear a ski jacket with hat and scarf and gloves 20's: Wear a ski jacket and hat 30's: Wear a ski jacket but leave it open 40's: Wear a wool overcoat 50's: Wear a heavy jacket 60's: Wear a light jacket…

Fahrenheit is absolutely bizarre outside US, scaling is so arbitrary it's not funny.

It seems to me that the most common general use of these units is to describe ambient outdoor temperatures, and while I admit that I haven't traveled widely, I'd be astonished to discover that most countries outside the US have physical environments more reminiscent of, say, Mercury or Venus, than what we in the US parochially consider to be Earth's standard range of atmospheric temperatures.

I suppose that's why I consider Fahrenheit to be a very appropriate scale - since it centers nicely on the range of temperatures one might actually experience on Earth, naively assuming that America is representative of the rest of the planet - and isn't quite so arbitrary as one indexed to the temperature of boiling water, a phenomenon which a person in America - and, presumptuously, the rest of the Earth - isn't likely to encounter without having intentionally induced it.

But perhaps -15 and 40 really are more sensible positions for roughly opposite extremes, and we really are the odd ones for using 0 and 100.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#346

For me this is too much rationalization for a single fact: people hate to change, even if it is for the better. So simple. I study Chinese and I am 100% certain than the reason Chinese did not develop like the West was the printing press and the superior method it is to have to print 25-30 symbols instead of 30.000. Just look at Chinese and even Japanese delay in getting to use computers as ASCII was so simple compar…

> The Chinese writing came first, the Indian copied the Chinese language and basically improved over them, then the Greeks copied that via Persia, and then the Romans copied the Greeks. Latin script's origins are in Egypt and Sumer, not in China. Writing was invented in the Near East about 3200BCE and about 1200BCE in China.

When I say the Chinese came first I did not want to say that they invented writing.

I am talking about sophistication in language,not just script. Most of the early Egyptian and Sumer writings are very simple accountings, mostly numbers. Very little to do with what we consider writing today.

latin is called an Indo-European language becomes it comes from India. Not just the language, but the race.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#347
post #339
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yet UK pushed through with switching to metric and went way further than US did. So this excuse isn't really valid. And yet they didn't switch over completely . People in the UK measure some things in metric and some things in the old Imperial units, which is the worst of both worlds. Pick up some random thing and its weight is measured in kg, but if you're weighing a person it's "stones". From here to the wall may…

> In the US the people didn't want to convert to metric Manufacturers aren't all people. Overall acceptance of the change by the public wasn't the main driver in stopping this effort. Corporate lobbying was however, as usual. In UK since they trade with the rest of Europe, lobbyists were not so eager to sabotage it. In US they are more isolated so they were more negative.

>Overall acceptance of the change by the public wasn't the main driver in stopping this effort. Corporate lobbying was however, as usual.

That simply isn't true. I remember those days - I was there.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Chinese writing came first, the Indian copied the Chinese language and basically improved over them, then the Greeks copied that via Persia, and then the Romans copied the Greeks. Latin script's origins are in Egypt and Sumer, not in China. Writing was invented in the Near East about 3200BCE and about 1200BCE in China.

When I say the Chinese came first I did not want to say that they invented writing. I am talking about sophistication in language,not just script. Most of the early Egyptian and Sumer writings are very simple accountings, mostly numbers. Very little to do with what we consider writing today. latin is called an Indo-European language becomes it comes from India. Not just the language, but the race.

> I am talking about sophistication in language,not just script. Most of the early Egyptian and Sumer writings are very simple accountings, mostly numbers. Very little to do with what we consider writing today.

I guess sophistication is subjective, but a lot of Chinese writing was just record keeping too, and there was literature in Egypt and Sumer, e.g. the Epic of Gilgamesh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_literature

> latin is called an Indo-European language becomes it comes from India. Not just the language, but the race.

The most popular theory is that the Proto-Indo-European language had its origins in Eastern Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_origins

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#349
post #343

The biggest liability of the metric system to me is its system of unit prefixes: this is just a bizarre reimplementation of scientific notation that expresses the most significant quantitative information not as part of the actual quantitative component of its notation, but as an arcane verbal prefix attached to the name of the thing being counted. What on earth is the advantage of a notation that makes it easy to sc…

You get several related units of measurement that each have sane conversion factors. If something goes well beyond centimeters, meters and later kilometers are much nicer to handle. Inches to feet to yards to miles doesn't scale nearly as nicely because of conversion factors of 12, 3 and (I think) 1760 involved there.

And since this property is shared by every unit you have the same conversion factors everywhere. No need to memorise hundreds of units, just a dozen and a pattern. Also when combining units (e.g. N being kg⋅m/s²) the conversion factors stay sane.

Re: Death by Inches: The battle over the metric system in America

#350

Here's my proposal: America goes metric, and the rest of the world starts driving on the right hand side of the road.

Can America also adapt Vienna Convention on Road Signs and Signals? Please.

"MUTCD specifies yellow lines between lanes of traffic moving in opposite directions and white lines between lanes moving in the same direction, whereas the Vienna Convention uses white for both." (Wikipedia)

No thanks.

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