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Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

nytimes.com

21–30 of 52 posts

Re: Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is important to understand the two types of traffic at a hub. There is connecting traffic -- people who are going from somewhere else to somewhere else and just using the hub as a point to change flights. And there is what the airline folks call "O&D" traffic (which stands for "Origin and Destination") -- people who are either starting their trip at the hub or ending their trip at the hub. Traditionally, hub locat…

Thanks for the analysis. Book publishers (vs. Amazon-as-hub) should take a lesson from the airlines in avoiding pure hubs :) Hopefully the newer versions of smaller aircraft will be as quiet (inside and outside) as the A380.

Note that many business jets derived from passenger carrying aircraft sell themselves as being quieter — they just take the extra weight in sound insulation, which decreases the freight capacity of the aircraft (which is incredibly lucrative) as that's not something most owners of business jets care about.

Re: Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

#23
post #2

Seems like a rather US-based perspective. It's true that no US-based airline has bought one. That's because the US has so many cities , that it makes sense for airlines to serve (say) SEA-NRT and SFO-NRT with separate smaller planes rather than just one honking big plane from SFO-NRT. Countries whose airlines have bought A380s are countries where the vast majority of international air traffic is concentrated through…

Plus any US airline which purchased the A380 would get negative PR from it. While most US airline companies operate airbus aircrafts, the A380 was really marked within the US as "Us. Vs. them" type aircraft (not least of it as it was a flagship) where it was American manufacturing under attack (Boeing 747) by a foreign competitor. So the first US airline company who buys one is going to get attacked by every single "…

> I'm sure most Americans enjoyed it however.

As an American I was interested enough to keep researching Airbus models on Wikipedia. I was pleasantly surprised to find that Airbus has manufacturing even in the U.S. for its airline production programs, and has even been expanding that production capacity.

I have flown on many intra-US flights on non-American planes (including Airbus, Bombardier and even Brazil's Embraer)... sometimes the market actually works!

I also read the NY Times article, and they covered quite in detail the successes and strengths of the A380 as espoused by the CEO of Emirates. Far from being a "hit piece" against the A380, the article appeared to me to be a simple-enough exposition of two major airline manufacturers taking different gambles about the future of aviation. Would this story only be accurate if it were published by Le Monde or Der Spiegel?

To return to your point, the whole point to Boeing's 787 development was to compete with "longer-range international" routes... at such a long range, in fact, that two cities could be directly connected instead of requiring the spoke-and-hub model that the A380 is optimized for. And in any event, U.S. carriers do indeed run long range international routes that would theoretically be up the A380's alley, but the problem is as you state: "you'd never fill THAT many seats" to make A380 profitable for U.S. airlines (as the NYT articles states, these airlines returned to profitability by reducing excess capacity).

Re: Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

#24
post #2

Seems like a rather US-based perspective. It's true that no US-based airline has bought one. That's because the US has so many cities , that it makes sense for airlines to serve (say) SEA-NRT and SFO-NRT with separate smaller planes rather than just one honking big plane from SFO-NRT. Countries whose airlines have bought A380s are countries where the vast majority of international air traffic is concentrated through…

As the article noted, this isn't just a US thing and actually isn't just an A380 thing. The A380 is just a very high-profile victim of it. The problems are twofold: 1. Four-engine airliners, regardless of size, are losing, basically worldwide, to twin-engine airliners with better fuel consumption. This is why the A380 and 747-8 sales are sluggish. This is why the A340 buyback program exists (airlines can't get rid of…

The 380 makes a lot of sense in heavily congested air corridors. Anywhere in China, Japan, SE Asia...there is more demand than airports and runways, so a bigger plane will just work better.

The US market is better for point to point because we have many more small airports and lots of redundant infrastructure that doesn't really need to be maximized. Europe is somewhat in the middle.

Re: Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

#25
It's interesting how the airline industry has evolved.

Years ago going from Australia to Europe typically meant going on the "kangaroo route" [1], typically via Singapore (the Qantas/BA/Singapore connection last year was replaced with a Qantas/Emirate/Dubai alliance). If you flew to continental Europe you often ended up flying to London and catching a local flight.

I visited the US in the 90s and ended up using US Air for a bunch of domestic flights. Primarily this was because at the time you could buy, as a foreigner, a number of flight coupons (that worked out to be about $50 each after 3 or so) that were redeemable for a single one-way flight (within a 3 month window).

US Air was (and is) pretty much the last holdout of the "hub" airline model in the US. I recall catching all those flights with layovers through Charlotte or Pittsburgh (or was it Philadelphia?).

The article is right that many passengers including myself prefer direct flights but there is some variability here. For example, I can fly NYC to SFO for as little as $260 coach return in non-peak periods. More typically it's $500-600. I can fly "First class" (it's not really that but it's a bigger seat with more legroom at least) on AA for $1100 via ORD or DFW. That's actually worth it at times. This compares favourably with the $4000+ AA charges for business on the new A321Ts.

Also, why do people prefer direct flights? It is at least in part due to the horrible experience and security theater that is modern air travel.

The A321T rollout is an example of what the article is talking about with reducing capacity too. Once complete, AA will end up with less transcon seat capacity.

But now there are not many places on the planet I can't get to from a major airport that require more than one layover. Hell, I can get from NYC to Perth, Australia (almost the complete other side of the planet) with one stop in Dubai, Doha or Hong Kong, possibly Tokyo and/or Seoul too.

I remember the fanfare the A380 came with 7-10 years ago and the competition with Boeing with what I think was the 747-400X? It was a concept that Boeing lost out on and was scrapped. They dodged a bullet on that one.

These days it's hard not to be on a Boeing 777-300ER (sometimes called 77W) for any serious long haul flights.

The article makes no mention of this but I MUCH prefer wide body planes (2 aisles not 1) as it gives you a chance of getting a center aisle seat where no one has to clamber over you to get to the bathroom. Ugh.

Anyway, this also evokes such boondoggles as the LA-SF "high speed" rail, which looks to be costing $30B, will take 15+ years to build, isn't that fast and is designed to solve a problem that isn't really a problem. The so-called problem is seat capacity between these two cities. It seems like the market is capable of solving this problem with bigger planes no one (currently) wants and prioritizing particular routes.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_Route

Re: Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

#26
One factor in favour of the single direct flight in smaller aircraft is the horrendous efficiency of airports. The amount of time spent queuing (checking in, enduring security humiliation, and in departure lounges) is usually a very significant part of the total travel time. And having to do it more than once makes it more than twice as tedious.

I recently travelled from London to south-east France by train, and it was a joy. No check-in, hardly noticed security scanning because there wasn't a queue, changing trains in Paris took half an hour (including a metro ride).

Re: Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

#27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus any US airline which purchased the A380 would get negative PR from it. While most US airline companies operate airbus aircrafts, the A380 was really marked within the US as "Us. Vs. them" type aircraft (not least of it as it was a flagship) where it was American manufacturing under attack (Boeing 747) by a foreign competitor. So the first US airline company who buys one is going to get attacked by every single "…

> I'm sure most Americans enjoyed it however. As an American I was interested enough to keep researching Airbus models on Wikipedia. I was pleasantly surprised to find that Airbus has manufacturing even in the U.S. for its airline production programs, and has even been expanding that production capacity. I have flown on many intra-US flights on non-American planes (including Airbus, Bombardier and even Brazil's Embra…

I did a quick check - to fly from Los Angeles to Santiago Chile (to pick a long-distance route entirely within the Americas) most every airline I noticed was doing it in two hops (typically LAX -> Lima -> Santiago) with narrow-body jets, usually an A-321 or similar.

If you were to leave from Miami, there are a couple of non-stops available, using either a 767 or 787. But the rest would have things like overnight layovers midway.

So I agree with you - if the demand were there, then a US carrier would lease an A-380 or four, so that they get more fares for the same fuel.

Re: Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

#28

Do any ordinary travelers care about the type of plane they're on? Do they even know before they get to the airport? If I had to choose between an old 737 with a 4 hour flight, and an A380 with a 6 hour flight (including the layover) there's just no question. And I can appreciate the presence of a bar in the back! It just doesn't matter that much. It seems obvious that an airline is going to focus on initial costs, f…

Frequent fliers who use seatguru and flyertalk would beg to differ. Not only the plane/airframe, but the seating configuration chosen by the airline makes a difference in the passenger experience of a transcontinental flight.

Re: Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

#29
post #26

One factor in favour of the single direct flight in smaller aircraft is the horrendous efficiency of airports. The amount of time spent queuing (checking in, enduring security humiliation, and in departure lounges) is usually a very significant part of the total travel time. And having to do it more than once makes it more than twice as tedious. I recently travelled from London to south-east France by train, and it w…

> I recently travelled from London to south-east France by train, and it was a joy. No check-in, hardly noticed security scanning because there wasn't a queue, changing trains in Paris took half an hour (including a metro ride).

Yet it's completely irrational why there are not the same security measures taken for train passengers. A bomb on a high speed train would lead to the death of hundred of people as well. Maybe it has to do with the fact that the government openly supports the train because it's one of the key investors in its infrastructure.

Re: Oversize Expectations for the Airbus A380

#30
post #25

It's interesting how the airline industry has evolved. Years ago going from Australia to Europe typically meant going on the "kangaroo route" [1], typically via Singapore (the Qantas/BA/Singapore connection last year was replaced with a Qantas/Emirate/Dubai alliance). If you flew to continental Europe you often ended up flying to London and catching a local flight. I visited the US in the 90s and ended up using US Ai…

> why do people prefer direct flights? It is at least in part due to the horrible experience and security theater that is modern air travel

The security theater part doesn't make sense, because connecting passengers don't have to go through security a second time. I'll agree with the "horrible experience" part, but I think the main reason people prefer direct flights is simply that it saves time.

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