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Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

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Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#251

Post by x0x0 »

guybrushT wrote: post #66
viggity wrote: post #7

well, at the very least, I think it isn't out of the question to be asked to be paid for those two weeks. If they made a mistake, shit happens, but they should still be on the hook for it. I'd even consider asking for severance of a couple weeks. They've hosed you, they should try to offset it a little bit. I understand that it probably isn't about the money, but I would hope they at least offered you that.

They have offered to pay me for the two weeks.

Fucking what? There is no "offer" to pay you for the two weeks. If you worked for them, they flat out owe you that money. That's an "offer" in the same way I "offer" to pay my landlord for not kicking me out.

You need a lawyer.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#252

Post by guybrushT »

poof131 wrote: post #230
Scuttles wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absurd guys. We have one guy's story, from his perspective. For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive. The founders had a reason to terminate him - be it what others would call a "good reason" or otherwise. Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of? What will happen? Will YC yank funding over this? I hope not -- that would set a dangerous precedent and make me, for one, tha…

"For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive." Working his network to help get a startup's first few customers at large, brand name companies? I'd hardly call that unproductive. In fact, if they iterate product dev on one of these customers, find that perfect product market fit, and scale; well, I'd say he played a roll in their success. "Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of?" T…

poof131 - you are absolutely right on all counts.

...getting terminated is a little more than just perspective. It is an event which can have significant repercussions for a person: mortgage payments...

This is the key issue. To be honest, even I am realising the impact this can have, only after it happened to me.

Financial: all plans made carefully, thoughtfully and intentionally are suddenly meaningless.

Personal: lot of awkward discussions :) friends, relatives, business acquaintances (e.g. I did the mistake of updating my LinkedIn - COO one day, and 14 days later deleted the "employment status". As someone pointed out, this is a first world problem - there are much worse things that can happen. I agree. But still, it really annoys me to explain myself to everyone who asks. Some even wonder, if I was "fired" :))

Work: searching for a job is not fun (at least for me), and having found something I love, commit to it (after much consideration) and then being yanked out of it so soon, felt cruel.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#253

Post by poof131 »

Alupis wrote: post #240
poof131 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive." Working his network to help get a startup's first few customers at large, brand name companies? I'd hardly call that unproductive. In fact, if they iterate product dev on one of these customers, find that perfect product market fit, and scale; well, I'd say he played a roll in their success. "Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of?" T…

> The company could be totally justified letting him go, just not in the manner in which they did it. How so? They decided he was not a good fit, by his own admission... so they cut him loose. Would you rather they hurt their business by keeping on employees who won't work out? > One, you can't be terminated for any reason. Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason,…

"Would you rather they hurt their business by keeping on employees who won't work out?"

I don't disagree that letting him go might have been the right decision for both parties, but to not compensate him properly for working his network to help get them some of their first customers, turning down other job offers, and actively working for the company? That's not right. They might have made a mistake in hiring him, but they definitely made a mistake in not adequately compensating him for his effort and explaining to him the reasons for the abrupt termination.

"At-Will Employment"

It doesn't allow termination for 'any reason' as other commenters have pointed out. And if CEOs and founders rely too much on this clause and don't behave ethically we could find ourselves in a position like France, where you can't fire anybody, a situation I hope we can avoid by professional conduct and respecting that it isn't just business, but people's lives.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#254

Post by ms4720 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #156
guybrushT wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I have made mistakes hiring people, and have paid them for their troubles, even going so far as to be a reference for the other opportunities they had available and telling them it was our mistake. I really respect this.

Thank you, but you shouldn't respect me for doing the right thing. Its what people should do.

Most just don't bother, well done

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#255

Post by dragonwriter »

guybrushT wrote: post #66
viggity wrote: post #7

well, at the very least, I think it isn't out of the question to be asked to be paid for those two weeks. If they made a mistake, shit happens, but they should still be on the hook for it. I'd even consider asking for severance of a couple weeks. They've hosed you, they should try to offset it a little bit. I understand that it probably isn't about the money, but I would hope they at least offered you that.

They have offered to pay me for the two weeks.

They owe you pay for the two weeks plus penalties (equal to one days pay for each day of delay) for not paying the final pay immediately at the time of termination, so they are "offering" for you to forgo pay to which you are legally entitled. See California Labor Code Secs. 201, 203.

EDIT: Though, the remote working arrangement and lack of US visa, even with what appears to be, from the given description, a valid employment contract (with offer, acceptance, and performance all having occurred) likely makes this less clear cut and, in any case, makes pursuing it more difficult, costly, and time consuming.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#256

Post by Alupis »

poof131 wrote: post #253
Alupis wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The company could be totally justified letting him go, just not in the manner in which they did it. How so? They decided he was not a good fit, by his own admission... so they cut him loose. Would you rather they hurt their business by keeping on employees who won't work out? > One, you can't be terminated for any reason. Yes you can. California has At-Will Employment. It means they can hire or fire for any reason,…

"Would you rather they hurt their business by keeping on employees who won't work out?" I don't disagree that letting him go might have been the right decision for both parties, but to not compensate him properly for working his network to help get them some of their first customers, turning down other job offers, and actively working for the company? That's not right. They might have made a mistake in hiring him, bu…

> It doesn't allow termination for 'any reason'

Actually, it does mean "for any reason" (well, within the law, which would exclude things such as race or gender, but that is clearly not the case here). Furthermore, a reason of "this employee is not a good fit for our company because of reason X" is absolutely allowed. (Unless the OP had signed a contract that had termination terms, etc... doesn't seem like it).

> we could find ourselves in a position like France, where you can't fire anybody

This is what employment contracts are for, some companies will have terms for when a termination is satisfactory, and other times you can negotiate terms as part of your employment agreement.

We only have one side of this story, and a lot of emotions have been stirred because of it. Was the OP actually officially hired (as in he had salary or hourly compensation was was logging hours)? If not, then why was he already performing "work" by hitting up companies and investing his time? (Seems like a "jump-the-gun" mistake).

I'm really sorry this happened to the OP -- but it's not abnormal, and certainly isn't the first time a YC funded startup has had to pivot and cut employees that won't fit.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#257

Post by x0x0 »

maaku wrote: post #55
toomuchtodo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say you did the right thing in not saying what the startup was — it isn't wise to look like a bridge-burner when you're looking for work. Today I learned that its considered "bridge burning" to communicate a company's terrible ethics in public.

Of course it is. Are you perfect, 100% without any flaws? How certain then are you that the employee you hire isn't going to start airing your dirty laundry at the earliest convenience?

If you treat employees with respect, you have little to fear.

If an employee makes a claim that puts you in a bad light, you can then honestly relate what happened. If there's nothing to be ashamed about, you'll come out of the experience fine.

Buffet has a fine definition of ethics:

   The priority is that all of us continue to zealously guard Berkshire's 
   reputation. We can’t be perfect but we can try to be. As I’ve said in these 
   memos for more than 25 years: We can afford to lose money – even a lot of 
   money. But we can’t afford to lose reputation – even a shred of reputation." 
   We must continue to measure every act against not only what is legal but 
   also what we would be happy to have written about on the front page of a 
   national newspaper in an article written by an unfriendly but intelligent 
   reporter.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#258

Post by poof131 »

jonnathanson wrote: post #236
poof131 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I can't think of a circumstance under which it benefits you to disclose your grievances with a former employer to a new or potential employer. I think the circumstance is like @jheriko said, as a filter. If an employer sees treating employees bad as dirty laundry, well maybe it isn't the place you want to work, and you're better off not getting an offer.

I understand that objective in theory, but it seems impractical in the wild. Most employers won't look beyond the surface level of "This person had issues with a previous employer and feels the need to discuss them here." They won't bother to ferret out who was right, who was wrong, and whether your grievances are legitimate -- even if they are. So you're basically raising a flag, and a lot of interviers or hiring ma…

I agree that it may not work very well as a filter and that you have to be extremely cautious with any 'negative' statements when interviewing for a job.

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#259

Post by angersock »

justguessingbut wrote: post #227
jowiar wrote: post #26

> I like the founders - they are good guys. No. They're not. You don't get to screw around with other people's lives and continue to possess the title of "good guy". If they were good guys, you would be receiving tens of thousands of dollars for your difficulties, and such would have enough of a runway on that such that you wouldn't need to ask us for advice. Please do us all a favor and let us know who they are beyo…

I think the YC startup is almost certainly SketchDeck. It's not too difficult to find the OP's real life identity based on his past work. From that, the information on http://angel.co/ pretty much gives it away.

So, the unfortunate thing now is that if it isn't SketchDeck, they're going to have some nasty PR shit to clean up that is totally undeserved.

If it is, well, they still need to do cleanup. OP, can you confirm/deny?

Re: Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason

#260

Post by x0x0 »

Alupis wrote: post #245
dragonwriter wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Terminating because the employee was not working out is not a prohibited reason. Its not even a reason, its just a semantically empty phrase. But in any case, I didn't say there was a prohibited reason here, I said that the claim that "at-will employment" means you can hire or fire "for any reason" is false.

We're arguing over semantics now... you get the point I was making. The big picture is the founders felt the OP wasn't going to work out -- and made a very appropriate decision to cut him loose now instead of later.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Read the chain. Nobody is arguing the company couldn't let him go. Rather, people are upset the founders didn't make it right for him. Frankly, they are assholes. Decent people would say something like, "Hey, this isn't going to work. We fucked up, and we're sorry. Here's two months of comp (or maybe six weeks) to find a new job, regain leases or find a new apartment, etc. And on the off chance you put this on your resume, we'll serve as a reference."
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