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Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

wired.co.uk

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Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay but there's a difference in the nature of the "pushing down" of a rocket, a plane, and a hovering helicopter, and in how much of an impulse is actually inflicted on an external mass.

Is there?

Yes. For an extreme example, imagine the wing of an airplane (or anything) sitting on the ground. It's putting a force on the ground, the ground's putting a force on it, and its altitude remains constant. The ground isn't getting any extra downward momentum, and the plane isn't getting any extra upward momentum.

Now consider a hovercraft. It sits on air. It does not push as much air downward as an airplane of equal weight would push. The amount of air it has to displace is probably proportional to the length of its perimeter (around the sides) multiplied by the height of the cushion of air it sits on multiplied by the air pressure underneath. Double the size of the hovercraft in both horizontal linear dimensions, and you've got double the perimeter, same air pressure (the machine's weight growing proportionally to area) and same cushion height, meaning you're holding four times the weight up with twice the air displacement.

Now consider a low-flying airplane. This is like an inefficient hovercraft, with the ground effect in play. Less air gets "pushed downward" than the same plane flying higher off the ground.

Consider a high-flying airplane. The ground effect is gone, but air's still got viscosity. Fly around the world forever and you'll notice that the amount of air beneath the plane is not actually increasing.

Hovering helicopters have to push more air downward than moving helicopters because they have to fight the stream of downward moving air that they've created for themselves.

If air had virtually no viscosity (suppose atoms were really tiny) then you'd have to fly by somehow forcing air to move downwards. If air had an extremely high amount of viscosity (relative to the mass and power of human-scale mechanical devices) then you wouldn't move it downwards at all -- planes would move around in the air like an amoeba or have a cylindrical conveyor belt surface. Our atmosphere is somewhere between these extremes.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#192
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been checking the (Word-generated) "papers" from this guy's group at NASA, they're extremely shoddy. Not defending this particular paper, but I'm curious why you highlighted the fact that it's written in Word. Just about everybody in physics these days uses Word to compose papers (Word + Mendeley is a dream, by the way). Maybe you think he's not a 'real man' because he doesn't sling raw LaTeX?

"everybody in physics these days uses Word to compose papers" What subfield of physics have you worked in? In my experience, this is not remotely true. Almost paper I read in grad school (e.g., on arXiv/quant-ph) was written in LaTeX. The exceptions written in Word were indeed quite likely to be the work of crackpots...

>What subfield of physics have you worked in?

Experimental condensed matter physics (free molecular beams). Never met anyone in my research group, or any other research group that anyone in my group collaborated with, who recently (in the past five years) composed a paper in LaTeX. I'm sure my thesis advisor did so when he was in grad school back in the dark ages, but even he uses Word.

> (e.g., on arXiv/quant-ph)

Yes, well, that is where the crackpots tend to like to hang out, isn't it?

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been checking the (Word-generated) "papers" from this guy's group at NASA, they're extremely shoddy. Not defending this particular paper, but I'm curious why you highlighted the fact that it's written in Word. Just about everybody in physics these days uses Word to compose papers (Word + Mendeley is a dream, by the way). Maybe you think he's not a 'real man' because he doesn't sling raw LaTeX?

What university is publishing papers in Word?

I don't know of anyone who publishes in Word (and universities don't publish papers, except for dissertations), but everyone composes papers in Word.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What university is publishing papers in Word?

I don't know of anyone who publishes in Word (and universities don't publish papers, except for dissertations), but everyone composes papers in Word.

What research group composes papers in Word?

EDIT: Oh, you mean research groups that don't do math.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of anyone who publishes in Word (and universities don't publish papers, except for dissertations), but everyone composes papers in Word.

What research group composes papers in Word? EDIT: Oh, you mean research groups that don't do math.

[deleted]

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of anyone who publishes in Word (and universities don't publish papers, except for dissertations), but everyone composes papers in Word.

What research group composes papers in Word? EDIT: Oh, you mean research groups that don't do math.

That's right. We like to do science.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And because it does not require energy just to hold things up (just as a chair does not require power to keep you off the ground), in theory you could have a hoverboard which does not require energy to float in the air. An item where you could dump electricity into it once, cut power, and have it resist gravity -- forever, and for free! -- is absolute horse shit.

>An item where you could dump electricity into it once, cut power, and have it resist gravity -- forever, and for free! -- is absolute horse shit. Um, you are completely wrong. There is a difference between force and energy. It is certainly possible to expend a small amount of energy to create a force which lasts in perpetuity. Energy = Force x Distance, and if there is no displacement in distance, then no energy is…

Even using Energy = Force X Distance you need to overcome the force of gravity been exerted upon the object, this means you need to continually exert a positive for force to overcome this.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I"m not following why you think the wheel generator will produce more power than is required to spin the wheel in the first place. Friction is a pretty big issue in your scenario. It seems orthogonal to the actual results.

The whole thing was a thought experiment to show how extraordinary the supposed result is. Power of the wheel = thrust * rim velocity. That's just basic physics you should learn in high school. P_1 = F * v This means if your force, that is, thrust, is constant, you generate more power the faster you go. That's also why cars accelerate faster from 20 to 30 km/h than from 120 to 130 km/h - they have constant power whic…

I've read this half a dozen times over the last days, trying to understand exactly what you are getting at. I think what you are saying is that you could use the power generated by the wheel to power the thruster, which would in turn spin the wheel.

The part I don't understand is why you think this "Wheel Generator" would impart any significant thrust to the wheel.

That is, let's say (for the sake of argument), that you needed 1 watt to generate 1 newton of thrust. And, that one newton of thrust could get a wheel spinning at 10 m/s. Now, we hook that wheel up to a generator, and it's capable of generating 1/10th of a watt of energy, but in doing so, obviously comes to a halt without external energy being imparted (because obviously the generator uses up its momentum to generate energy) - but, the energy being created by the spinning wheel (1/10th of a watt), only can get the wheel spinning at 1 m/s.

The entire system comes to a halt quickly.

I'm not suggesting that the entire idea of a reactionless thruster doesn't have huge holes in it - but it certainly doesn't seem to (at least) suggest that you have a perpetual motion machine.

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" We still can't make up our minds as to how wings work, so this isn't overly novel. Sure, we can explain the outcome, but whether it's Navier-Stokes or Bernoulli or something else, we can't make up our minds. " Time to trot out my favorite quote about how airplanes fly, from Stick and Rudder by Wolfgang Langewiesche, page 9, published 1944: »The main fact of all heavier-than-air flight is this: the wing keeps the ai…

I'm truly baffled at how people keep claiming that we don't understand how wings work when this obvious explanation is out there, one that any 8-year-old could give you, and it's absolutely right. "We don't understand how planes could fly upside down"---nonsense; it's the same way they flight right-side-up: by pushing the air down (or pulling, if you like).

Well, in my school (in France) the explanation was the 'equal transit time' which of course didn't satisfy me at all (it took me a long time to get a satisfying explanation).

So when schools teach this kind of BS, you can expect that the confusion will last a long time..

Re: Questions about Nasa's space drive answered

#200
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"verified from the ground up with good experimental conditions" No it hasn't. That's the hype. Read the Baez commentary referenced elsewhere. Research all the other physics breaking phenomenon that had experimental confirmation but were still shown to be wrong. It's not like this effect was just noticed yesterday. You'd think that for an effect that Shaw created a company for in 2000, we'd have solid experimental res…

The emdrive is being tested by NASA staff, who did not invent it. That alone is a very significant difference from the ecat, which was only ever demonstrated by its creator. Now NASA is still probably wrong, but if so, they are innocently wrong. They wouldn't gain anything by faking an effect. If anything, they are getting heaping abuse for reporting anything at all. Which I think is a problem for science. People sho…

Read the Baez blogs. Read the Discovery mag blog that shows that this is barely "NASA". It's really a few fringe scientists who have a reputation for hyping pseudoscience.

When they had a chance to look critically at their own experiments in their report, they spent effort and text hyping theoretical applications or something like that. They deserve some "go back and do it right this time, junior" criticism.

I'd rather they not waste our tax dollars on this kind of nonsense.

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