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Don't be a jerk

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Re: Don't be a jerk

#81

Post by atmosx »

aerovistae wrote: post #29
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #12

It seems like this is an instance of a more general trend: The commenting ecosystem is in decline. It's better than Reddit, but it's a shadow of what it once was. I've noticed downvotes are trending now. The downvotes do correct themselves... most of the time. But there's a lot more frivolous downvoting due to the influx of people that have attained downvote privileges but haven't really shunned the mindset of other…

Give me a break. You sound exactly like the elderly folks you always hear saying "things used to be so much better, nobody saying "Sir" and "Ma'am" anymore...kids these days have no manners." The commenting ecosystem on the internet has always been a coarse and insensitive place, and it always will be. This is not a new thing.

Hm, no. The author actually gots it wrong :-)

Go to the early days of IRC, BBS and Mailing Lists and see what kind of flames flew around for just asking what other people considered lame.

HN community is really polite!

Re: Don't be a jerk

#82

Post by hibikir »

adamzerner wrote: post #50
infiniteri wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do people attain downvoting privileges? A possible solution would be to simply remove many people's downvoting ability. Reserve the right for an elite few who have insightful things to say and are sparing in their usage. This is a new account and I've found that it's surprisingly liberating to not have a downvote option. When I disagree with someone, I can either reply or I can just ignore the comment. Good conte…

I think you get it at 500 karma. Maybe it'd be a good idea for the site admins to check the first 5-10 downvotes of someone who just received downvoting privileges, and if they're inappropriately used, take the downvoting privileges away from that person.

Some sort of double checking of downvotes is pretty common in many places that do support them. We had metamoderation even in good old slashdot.

Now, at least there are plenty of HN users that are active looking at downvoted content, and bringing it back up if they think the downvote was unfair. This behavior could be used to evaluate frequent downvoters: If someone consistently downvotes comments that end up in the positives, then maybe their downvoting privileges should be revoked.

An algorithm like that should be pretty easy to tweak too: Start with removing, say, the bottom 1% in ranked downvoting quality, and alter it as needed.

Re: Don't be a jerk

#83

Post by minimaxir »

krapp wrote: post #67
bane wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On certain topics, HN always had a downvote problem for certain contrarian opinions. For example, heaven forbid you didn't think everything Apple produced when Steve Jobs was alive was a gift from heaven. Anything questioning that was always downvoted, even if presented in a non-snarky way. It was so bad that pg even introduced a downvote floor (-5) to keep people from shedding hundreds of points of karma when the do…

I believe the fix is simple - don't start fading out downvoted comments until a certain threshold of negativity has been reached. I think the visual 'reward' of being able to silence a commenter without effort or reply contributes a great deal to the noisy and petty nature of initial downvotes.

I believe that one of the intents behind the fading-out of comments is to invoke OCD and encourage corrective upvoting for comments that don't deserve it.

I do think it should start at -1 points and not 0 points, however.

Re: Don't be a jerk

#84

Post by lazyant »

jedanbik wrote: post #69

I don't think there should be a downvote option. There should be an option for upvoting, and an option for flagging offensive content/content that is against the HN community guidelines. As it stands, there is no visual emphasis on high quality comments. There is a visual emphasis on low quality comments. Why is that? Apologies in advance if I am making an ignorant statement.

agree: 'upvote' or 'flag' and if you click 'flag' you have to choose an option like 'insulting' 'revealing personal info' etc

Re: Don't be a jerk

#85

Post by jack-r-abbit »

bane wrote: post #75
krapp wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the fix is simple - don't start fading out downvoted comments until a certain threshold of negativity has been reached. I think the visual 'reward' of being able to silence a commenter without effort or reply contributes a great deal to the noisy and petty nature of initial downvotes.

I've long thought that downvotes should require a comment. Perhaps a better idea is that dowvotes past a certain threshold require a comment. I know I've been downvoted in the past for various innocent comments and have no idea why the groupthink thought that comment in particular had to die. As has been observed here before, downvotes are often a normative function of the groupthink. But unless corrective action is…

Yep. I have been truly baffled more than once by a downvote on a comment. The first time it happened I made the mistake of asking why... and that one got downvoted even more. Strange.

Re: Don't be a jerk

#86

Post by exelius »

bane wrote: post #40
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #12

It seems like this is an instance of a more general trend: The commenting ecosystem is in decline. It's better than Reddit, but it's a shadow of what it once was. I've noticed downvotes are trending now. The downvotes do correct themselves... most of the time. But there's a lot more frivolous downvoting due to the influx of people that have attained downvote privileges but haven't really shunned the mindset of other…

On certain topics, HN always had a downvote problem for certain contrarian opinions. For example, heaven forbid you didn't think everything Apple produced when Steve Jobs was alive was a gift from heaven. Anything questioning that was always downvoted, even if presented in a non-snarky way. It was so bad that pg even introduced a downvote floor (-5) to keep people from shedding hundreds of points of karma when the do…

Yeah, the downvote brigade problem rears its head whenever I try to discuss the ISP side of the network neutrality debate. I don't even necessarily agree with all of it -- but I feel it's a perspective that is sorely missing in most internet discussions of the topic.

Heaven forbid you treat Internet routing and content delivery like a business and try to align profit incentives with societally desired outcomes - the HN opinion seems to be that all Internet peering and access should be free to everyone (nevermind that a lot of companies make a lot of money off of it).

I'm of the opinion that posts should be upvoted whether you agree with them or not - if it's a well-spoken argument, it adds to the discussion. Good arguments strengthen everyone: if someone replies to your post with a well-worded argument that you have no answer for, someone else with more knowledge on the subject or a different perspective might have one that reinforces your position.

IMO there should be a "mod override" that allows moderators to set the floor on certain controversial posts to 1. This could ensure informative posts don't get buried just because the majority happens to disagree with the opinion presented. HN as a community is pretty good at encouraging discussion and avoiding groupthink, but it's still a problem on certain topics.

Re: Don't be a jerk

#88

Post by minimaxir »

jedanbik wrote: post #69

I don't think there should be a downvote option. There should be an option for upvoting, and an option for flagging offensive content/content that is against the HN community guidelines. As it stands, there is no visual emphasis on high quality comments. There is a visual emphasis on low quality comments. Why is that? Apologies in advance if I am making an ignorant statement.

High-quality comments rank higher, so they're the first read and no signal is needed to differentiate them.

You can flag comments by clicking the direct link to a comment too.

Re: Don't be a jerk

#89

Post by amitparikh »

korzun wrote: post #41

Welcome to the internet. Maybe they erased the post by accident? How do you know that your answer solved their issue or was relevant? You might think that was the case but it might not be. In general, I think this is a extremely silly. I had instances where I would post about cloud infrastructure and somebody would crawl out of their hole to 'educate' me on colocation, thinking they are solving a ground breaking issu…

In general, I agree with you. The nature of internet commenting is such. There should be no expectation that the parent comment will continue to live -- the comment itself should be considered "owned" by the original poster, who has the prerogative to delete it.

But that shouldn't be an excuse for any of us to refrain from providing feedback, insight, and advice online. In fact, we should continue to do so with the understanding that our time in producing that comment/content is volunteered.

And of course, on the other side, we should strive to retain the record of the communication chain if we are the original posters. Deleting a comment is your choice, but it's probably good practice and behavior not to.

Re: Don't be a jerk

#90

Post by minimaxir »

danbucholtz wrote: post #11

This advice really applies to all walks of life. If you're running a start-up (mine is gopaperbox.com), this is how you should treat your customers. More than likely there is someone that does something similar to you. The best way to win is to treat your customer with the utmost respect and be as fair as possible to them. Cliche advice, yes, but it is absolutely integral to success.

You're being downvoted because you're self-promoting your startup for no reason, not because your content is low quality.
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