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LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

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Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#21

Post by allsystemsgo »

romanovcode wrote: post #6
allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

Sorry to say but if you're working overtime for absolutely free you're not very smart person.

Well, I work overtime usually for the first 6-12 months when I first start my job. I expect to be compensated for the hours I work overtime after reviews.

Should that not happen, I will assume the firm doesn't care if I move on after 2-3 years for opportunities with better compensation.

It is what it is. I'm married and have financial obligations. That said, who's to say I don't moonlight and make extra cash that way? ;-)

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#22

Post by btown »

hmahncke wrote: post #10
revelation wrote: post #4

prohibiting off-the-clock work to all nonexempt employees I presume this doesn't include computer professionals , which for some reason are exempt [1], as are sales staff on commission or, you know, farmworkers . Can someone explain why this insanity continues? The original source for that exemption seems to be [2], an act from 1990 To eliminate "substantial documentary evidence" requirement for minimum wage determin…

In California, computer professionals paid under ~$85k are required to be non-exempt (hourly) and should be paid overtime [1] [1]: http://www.shrm.org/templatestools/hrqa/pages/california-min...

A cached link because it seems to be behind a login wall (wtf?):

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XSpG9Y8...

EDIT: So there's this little gem in there:

> However, the above exemption does not apply to an employee if any of the following apply:

...

> The employee is a writer engaged in writing material, including box labels, product descriptions, documentation, promotional material, setup and installation instructions, and other similar written information, either for print or for onscreen media or who writes or provides content material intended to be read by customers, subscribers or visitors to computer-related media such as the Internet or CD-ROMs.

So if you're a frontend dev who isn't spoon-fed 100% of the copy you put up on the site, it's apparently illegal for you to be paid below $84k if you work more than 12 hours in a day without getting overtime? IANAL, but there's no other exemption for co-founders and other early employees, then I'd venture to say that 99% of startups have broken this law...

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#23

Post by conistonwater »

Smudge wrote: post #2

> This company has shown a great deal of integrity by fully cooperating with investigators and stepping up to the plate without hesitation to help make workers whole ... We are particularly pleased that LinkedIn also has committed to take positive and practical steps towards securing future compliance. I'm surprised they're getting praised so much for complying. It's not like they had a choice. Instead of commending…

There is a cynical and pessimistic interpretation (just an idle thought; I know nothing at all): the investigators are stretched thin, so instead of investigating anything themselves, they instead ask LinkedIn to investigate itself. LinkedIn slaps itself a little bit, writes a report, agrees to a settlement, maybe manages to soften some language or push its own interpretation of events, "we did this, this and this, but we never ever did any of that".

The investigators never had enough resources to do an investigation on their own, they check that LinkedIn's report is roughly as stern as their own report would have been based on evidence and interpretations presented in LinkedIn's report and what investigators already knew, agree to a settlement. The outcome is that LinkedIn is "punished" and investigators look like they are doing their job.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#24

Post by Shivetya »

tinco wrote: post #19
Smudge wrote: post #2

> This company has shown a great deal of integrity by fully cooperating with investigators and stepping up to the plate without hesitation to help make workers whole ... We are particularly pleased that LinkedIn also has committed to take positive and practical steps towards securing future compliance. I'm surprised they're getting praised so much for complying. It's not like they had a choice. Instead of commending…

This looks to me like a cultural problem, not only in the IT sector but in all sectors where high performance is a measurably inductor to profit. I hope this case sets a precedent and will lead to employees whistle-blowing organisations where overtime goes untracked and unpaid. It's ridiculous that employees would work their guts out for companies that they don't hold significant shares in without receiving even norm…

Uh, it was because LinkedIn was guilty of overtime of non exempt employees. I find that in most shops I have seen nearly everyone is exempt. I record hours per day for my work, I am fully exempt.

Many in the tech industry will voluntarily put in excessive hours and this causes pressure on others to do similar, unless within a protected class of workers.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#25

Post by yulaow »

allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

As a EU citizen I hoped to see a /s under your post. I do not want to be rude but here it is obvious that if you work overtime you must be compensated and also very well (usually 1,5-2 times more than regular hours). And not only it, in some states, like mine, you can work only a limited amount of hours (6 or 8, I don't remember well) overtime per week, otherwise it is illegal.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#26

Post by jimmaswell »

romanovcode wrote: post #6
allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

Sorry to say but if you're working overtime for absolutely free you're not very smart person.

I agree. It's ridiculous how socially accepted free overtime is around here.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#27

Post by michaelochurch »

gnu8 wrote: post #8
revelation wrote: post #4

prohibiting off-the-clock work to all nonexempt employees I presume this doesn't include computer professionals , which for some reason are exempt [1], as are sales staff on commission or, you know, farmworkers . Can someone explain why this insanity continues? The original source for that exemption seems to be [2], an act from 1990 To eliminate "substantial documentary evidence" requirement for minimum wage determin…

It persists partially because tech industry workers are especially susceptible to class confusion. That is, the startup culture stock option lottery deludes them into thinking they are a part of the ownership class rather than the working class. Thus, they allow basically all of the fruits of their labor to be stolen from them. That, and powerful lobbyists keep anything from changing.

It persists partially because tech industry workers are especially susceptible to class confusion. That is, the startup culture stock option lottery deludes them into thinking they are a part of the ownership class rather than the working class. Thus, they allow basically all of the fruits of their labor to be stolen from them.

Very well said. They take everything literally and accept management's account of all things uncritically, which makes it really easy to run divide-and-conquer games over them.

It also lowers their status (as I discussed here: http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other...) because they out themselves as chumps when they take a shitty deal. If you make it clear that you'll let people take advantage of you, they never stop doing so.

On the other hand, those who show themselves to be politically astute are either tapped for executive roles or "culture fitted" (read: fired for their threat to the cult of cluelessness, although it's often dressed as performance-based). Which of those two outcomes one gets tends to happen for political, rather than "meritocratic" reasons, and can be hard to predict before the fact. So that's a risky avenue, too.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#28

Post by gnarbarian »

jahewson wrote: post #12
krschultz wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some excerpts that help explain it: The FLSA requires that covered, nonexempt employees be paid at least the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour for all hours worked, plus time and one-half their regular hourly rates for hours worked beyond 40 per week. With few exceptions, to be exempt an employee must (a) be paid at least $23,600 per year ($455 per week), and (b) be paid on a salary basis, and also (c) perform e…

Yep, most HN readers are probably exempt due to the "computer employee" exemption: > Computer Employees: Those who work in computer-related occupations, for example computer systems analysts, computer programmers and computer software engineers, are exempt as long as their work involves a combination of primary duties that include applying systems analysis techniques and procedures, consulting with users to determine…

I wonder what (if there is one) the logical reason behind this exemption is.

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#29

Post by dpritchett »

gnarbarian wrote: post #28
jahewson wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, most HN readers are probably exempt due to the "computer employee" exemption: > Computer Employees: Those who work in computer-related occupations, for example computer systems analysts, computer programmers and computer software engineers, are exempt as long as their work involves a combination of primary duties that include applying systems analysis techniques and procedures, consulting with users to determine…

I wonder what (if there is one) the logical reason behind this exemption is.

Reading the DoL's advisory on this [1] suggests that it all hinges on the concept of blue-collar vs. white-collar or production vs. staff employees. I can only imagine that the 'production' employees are seen as more interchangeable and largely incapable of having multiplicative effects on the company's business model. A programmer or accountant who's getting a raw deal can find a better job (where better means pay commensurate with contributions), but a tier 1 help desk tech or factory worker will likely have a lower ceiling on possible pay to begin with, and (more) trouble finding a way to secure compensation that scales with corporate success.

It is surprisingly hard to find explanations for this - the web is choked with articles explaining who's exempt and who's not, but not so many with justifications or reasoning or historical context.

[1]: http://www.dol.gov/whd/overtime/preamble_final.htm

Re: LinkedIn to pay nearly $6M in unpaid overtime wages and damages to 359 employees

#30

Post by georgemcbay »

Semaphor wrote: post #20
allsystemsgo wrote: post #3

I don't get it. So if I'm working overtime for my employer, a lot, I'm entitled to money? I get that my work after hours is essentially "free" labor. But I wasn't aware that there are actually laws that say salaried employees are entitled to more compensation when working after hours.

Wait, if you work overtime in the U.S. you do not get compensated for it?

It depends on your job and other factors, but sometimes the answer is, sadly, yes.

My mom is a soon-to-retire nurse and she was a salaried employee who, if she worked overtime, made either time-and-a-half (1.5x) or double-time (2x) pay depending upon the situation.

But software developers, for all of the talk of ninjas and rockstars and whatnot, are a socially low and easily exploited class that make decisions against our own interests (laughing off the idea of unions, etc); so we often work up to 1.5 to 2 times (60-80 hours is very common) over our official salaried hours for free.

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