Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents • Hacker News Board

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#31

Post by msie » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:04 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #20

gaius wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... And how is it helped by a £2 beer now costing £5, and a burger costing £20? Thats the problem with hipsters - they buy the property out from under some residents, then make it impossible for those that remain to afford anything. They are like locusts. Eventually (as we see in London) they even price themselves out of an area, then move onto the next to destroy. E.g. from Stoke Newington to Dalston. What about the…

Why do you target your rage at the hipsters paying £5 for a beer rather than the bartender charging £5 for that beer? Or, perhaps, his landlord, for raising is rent to the point where he needs to charge £5? I guarantee that the hipster would rather pay £2. The whole issue of gentrification seems to always come around to blaming the people who move in rather than the people who profit off of them, be they existing hom…

I see the same misplaced rage against foreign buyers of real estate (or the perception of foreign buyers inflating real estate prices). There is a whole lot of blame to go around.

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#32

Post by kimdouglasmason » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:08 PM UTC

wallflower wrote: post #13

This article conveniently sashays around the real effects of gentrification due to the "entitlement" mentality of the more recent newcomers. For example, I heard of a neighborhood ballpark that was used for decades by Latino children to play ball. The newcomers with dogs would chuck their dog's droppings over the fence and onto the ballpark. Latinos who used to play dominos outside at another park. Until they were co…

So many logical fallacies in a single post. Well done sir.

If you substitute 'newcomers' with 'foreigners', and 'Latino' with 'white', your post reads as exactly the same xenophobic screed I've heard over and over for years.

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#33

Post by TehCorwiz » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:08 PM UTC

kareemm wrote: post #30

wallflower wrote: post #13

This article conveniently sashays around the real effects of gentrification due to the "entitlement" mentality of the more recent newcomers. For example, I heard of a neighborhood ballpark that was used for decades by Latino children to play ball. The newcomers with dogs would chuck their dog's droppings over the fence and onto the ballpark. Latinos who used to play dominos outside at another park. Until they were co…

First off, anecdote != data. But I'll bite. > The newcomers with dogs would chuck their dog's droppings over the fence and onto the ballpark. This seems more like douchebaggery than entitlement. If I had to hazard a guess, douchebaggery isn't limited to gentrifiers. > Seems like the newcomers didn't like the bodega feel when they were out walking their dogs. Seems like a function of (middle-to-upper-class) western li…

Wait...Did you just argue that gathering in a park (a public gathering place) and playing a board game can be illegal? Where do you live that has laws like that?

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#34

Post by infosample » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:10 PM UTC

otterley wrote: post #14

infosample wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

shaftoe, as a thought experiment consider why the neighborhood is run down. Did the people run down the neighborhood because that's what they like? How was the economic situation for these people? How were the schools, the hospitals, the law enforcement? Was there housing discrimination? How were their politicians? What was the funding like compared to other neighborhoods? In other words, how was the neighborhood bef…

How are these matters relevant to the opinion that improving neighborhoods is a good thing?

"That improvement is unfair to the people who ran it down"

Assumption 1: The residents are the people who ran down the neighborhood.

Assumption 2: Gentrification improves the neighborhood.

My previous comment addresses the first assumption. Feel free to disagree.

If a neighborhood is just real estate, assumption two is valid. If a neighborhood is a community of people, and gentrification moves a lot of the people, you have not improved the neighborhood, you displaced it.

Once we question these assumptions, perhaps we can address the root problems.

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#35

Post by infosample » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:23 PM UTC

forrestthewoods wrote: post #28

wallflower wrote: post #13

This article conveniently sashays around the real effects of gentrification due to the "entitlement" mentality of the more recent newcomers. For example, I heard of a neighborhood ballpark that was used for decades by Latino children to play ball. The newcomers with dogs would chuck their dog's droppings over the fence and onto the ballpark. Latinos who used to play dominos outside at another park. Until they were co…

It's entitlement all the way down. People who live somewhere feel entitled to stay there indefinitely because they were there "first". People who don't live there feel entitled to buy their way in because that's how supply and demand work.

I don't think people who live in bad neighborhoods feel entitled.

The choice is often moving from one bad neighborhood to another. Moving is expensive and a hassle for everyone, it's no wonder people don't want to move without a strong incentive.

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#36

Post by forrestthewoods » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:28 PM UTC

infosample wrote: post #35

forrestthewoods wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entitlement all the way down. People who live somewhere feel entitled to stay there indefinitely because they were there "first". People who don't live there feel entitled to buy their way in because that's how supply and demand work.

I don't think people who live in bad neighborhoods feel entitled. The choice is often moving from one bad neighborhood to another. Moving is expensive and a hassle for everyone, it's no wonder people don't want to move without a strong incentive.

Define bad? Do you mean bad as in poor or bad as in dangerous and unsafe. I mostly hear gentrification in the context of poor neighborhoods rather than unsafe.

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#37

Post by otterley » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:37 PM UTC

infosample wrote: post #34

otterley wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are these matters relevant to the opinion that improving neighborhoods is a good thing?

"That improvement is unfair to the people who ran it down" Assumption 1: The residents are the people who ran down the neighborhood. Assumption 2: Gentrification improves the neighborhood. My previous comment addresses the first assumption. Feel free to disagree. If a neighborhood is just real estate, assumption two is valid. If a neighborhood is a community of people, and gentrification moves a lot of the people, yo…

"If a neighborhood is a community of people, and gentrification moves a lot of the people, you have not improved the neighborhood, you displaced it."

Maybe; maybe not. If crime and other social and environmental ills are reduced after the previous inhabitants have been displaced, I'd contend it's an improvement.

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#38

Post by otterley » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:40 PM UTC

msie wrote: post #31

curun1r wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you target your rage at the hipsters paying £5 for a beer rather than the bartender charging £5 for that beer? Or, perhaps, his landlord, for raising is rent to the point where he needs to charge £5? I guarantee that the hipster would rather pay £2. The whole issue of gentrification seems to always come around to blaming the people who move in rather than the people who profit off of them, be they existing hom…

I see the same misplaced rage against foreign buyers of real estate (or the perception of foreign buyers inflating real estate prices). There is a whole lot of blame to go around.

Foreign buyers are a different matter; they usually have no intent to live in the properties they buy, and often no intent to lease them to tenants either. For example, the Hyde Park neighborhood in London is basically becoming a rich ghost town (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26980299).

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#39

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:48 PM UTC

There's no link to the first study, but I'm pretty sure the results of the Cleveland Fed are a result of the batty definition of gentrification used:

"For the purpose of this analysis, I will say a neighborhood is gentrifying if it is located in the central city of a metropolitan area and it goes from being in the bottom half of the distribution of home prices in the metropolitan area to the top half between 2000 and 2007. Housing prices are a good measure of gentrification since they provide a summary of the various amenities in the neighborhood. Changes in neighborhood amenities such as increases in school quality or decreases in crime should be reflected in changes in neighborhood home prices."

Again: Entirely based on home prices (reasonable), but not on home price improvement, but instead based on passing from the lower half of the entire distribution of prices in a metropolitan area to the upper half. This could happen if housing prices declined in an area if the mean price in the metro declined slightly faster. This is not what normal people are talking about when they refer to gentrification.

Re: Gentrification May Actually Be Boon To Longtime Residents

#40

Post by yarrel » Sat, Aug 02, 2014, 7:50 PM UTC

kimdouglasmason wrote: post #32

wallflower wrote: post #13

This article conveniently sashays around the real effects of gentrification due to the "entitlement" mentality of the more recent newcomers. For example, I heard of a neighborhood ballpark that was used for decades by Latino children to play ball. The newcomers with dogs would chuck their dog's droppings over the fence and onto the ballpark. Latinos who used to play dominos outside at another park. Until they were co…

So many logical fallacies in a single post. Well done sir. If you substitute 'newcomers' with 'foreigners', and 'Latino' with 'white', your post reads as exactly the same xenophobic screed I've heard over and over for years.

Ad hominem, appeal to emotion, guilt by association, and straw man.

Although to be fair that's the fallacy fallacy.