A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#141

Post by simonh » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 2:14 PM UTC

milesf wrote: post #120

krapp wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you think about it, once you accept that an afterlife is something worth worrying about, you're left with hundreds if not thousands of unfalsifiable, contradictory (and even antagonistic) folk tales and the task of choosing one and hoping you're right -- although for most people, this question is answered for them by the circumstances of their birth, and it seems normal, even obvious. So really, simply choosing…

Yeah, but how many folk tales do you know of have our calendar measured after the life of one man? 2014 AD or more fully "Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Christi". How many of those tales give you a single point of failure, that if you can explain away one point then internally the whole belief system collapses? ( http://bit.ly/1uNpRwT with a modern explanation at http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-resurrection-of-jesus ) Se…

The answer to each of those questions is rather a lot. The lack of knowledge of other belief systems here is utterly stunning. Did you really just put all your faith in the very first religion that you randomly happened to be exposed to, and not consider any others at all?

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#142

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 2:29 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #96

cristianpascu wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny that we tell our children not to do things that will certainly have bad consequences for them, like putting their hand in fire. But still, there's mockery around after-life scenarios like we'd know something for certain. There's so much mystery around our existence, consciousness, suffering, that mocking precautions about after-life is incredibly foolish.

There are at least two religions for which belief in one constitutes damnation in the other. At least one of them has to be wrong. Of course, to any person, his religion can't be wrong. (If it can, then it is at least in some sense not "his religion.") So to every strong believer, someone else's afterlife precautions are either superfluous or futile. Of course, that doesn't mean the question should be taken lightly,…

Just addressing this sole point.

>to any person, his religion can't be wrong //

I disagree with this quite strongly, at least as far as "religion" is a placeholder word suitable for "Christian faith".

There is an oft repeated aphorism in Christian circles that says if certain proof of God's works existed then faith wouldn't be needed to put one's trust in Jesus, as the way back to God and on in life. Doesn't the idea of faith require that one considers such a thing could be wrong?

When I became a Christian I spent some time trying to explain what I'd experienced in a way that was consistent with my former world view. My view then was perhaps best described as Pyrhonic Popperism [I think that's not a common description!] - nothing is certain but everything falsified should be held untrue so long as this forms a consistent view. That's pretty much as I am now. I'd say there is a tiny element of post-modernism in there but the majority of my thought has held to the position that there is a single discoverable truth about the nature of the universe; since my formative years however I've held that science creates a largely consistent view that is not necessarily true (that's built in to scientific method) but is mostly useful for describing our interactions with the true universe.

That said, my point is that there's probably not a day goes past when I don't consider my faith could be misplaced (in one aspect or other). There is a common thread of doubt that forms a central part of most Christian's lives AFAICT too. Saint Thomas's doubt is not a reason for chastisement but a simple reflection of his humanity.

It's the same in physical and spiritual worlds - I doubt the existence of m-branes or axions (and CDM in general) and that causes me to reflect on their true nature and enquire as to their being.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#143

Post by lilsunnybee » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 2:53 PM UTC

Estragon wrote: post #65

He had spent seven years sacrificing himself, driving himself to the point of breakdown, nearly to death, trying to help these people, and they didn’t care about him at all. What was the point? He knew that if you were suicidal it was difficult to understand other people’s problems, but still—he had been talking to some of these people for years, and now here he was dying and nobody cared. When I volunteered on a sui…

If they had BPD (borderline personality disorder), in all likelihood they were not acting manipulative at all, and were just very often in distress and experiencing very strong, dysregulated feelings and emotions. BPD people being "manipulative" is a negative and inaccurate stigma, based on misunderstanding. It is also highly harmful, as people are told to always hold in their emotions, always be wary of trying to be "manipulative", or reveal their true feelings to anyone. Since Borderline people likely went through significant trauma in childhood, contributing to the disorder, they are being made to suffer a second round of emotional abuse and/or neglect due to ignorance and people not getting their facts straight.

People with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder), or ASPD (antisocial personality disorder) might exaggerate feelings to get attention or something else from you. Though if you were on a suicide hotline, ASPD people would have no reason for calling if not genuinely in distress, and i doubt you were encountering that many NPD people.

Is it that hard to believe that some people might actually be commonly dealing with very strong emotions and impulses they can't control? It's really unfair of you to label others emotions as fake and attention-seeking, when you really have very little data to go on as to whether that's the case or not.

And above all "Borderline people are not manipulative!" I wish i could shout that from the mountaintops, but i can't and most people don't care to listen anyways. You're inaccurately and likely prematurely applying the wrong label, and should give even regulars and even people you think you know well the benefit of the doubt.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#144

Post by lilsunnybee » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 2:58 PM UTC

Estragon wrote: post #65

He had spent seven years sacrificing himself, driving himself to the point of breakdown, nearly to death, trying to help these people, and they didn’t care about him at all. What was the point? He knew that if you were suicidal it was difficult to understand other people’s problems, but still—he had been talking to some of these people for years, and now here he was dying and nobody cared. When I volunteered on a sui…

The correct way to handle behavior that you think might be manipulative? Have boundaries and rules. Limit call times to a reasonable limit, or if the person seems to be done talking about anything substantial, move towards concluding the conversation. If somebody is just going around in circles with stories or thoughts, cut through that mess with a directed question. Try to get to the heart of any issues that might be at play. Don't let yourself be played (by upholding boundaries and limits), but don't label or dismiss people out of hand either.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#145

Post by lilsunnybee » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 3:24 PM UTC

ionised wrote: post #139

cristianpascu wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans have many beliefs. Facts are not beliefs. Beliefs are not facts. The nature of life after death, if there is one, is a fact. Our multitude of beliefs about it do not change there being or not life our death, just as our very existence is not a matter of belief. We are or we're not. Just because we have epistemic limitations, that doesn't mean that the ontology of life, before and after death, is influenced by…

> I hope you'd agree with me when I say that love is more natural to human beings than fear. I wouldn't agree with that. Fear is one of the most basic instincts. A core emotion to most species along with joy, sadness, anxiety and anger. Love, while most are certainly capable of it, isn't among those core emotions.

Living in fear is a wretched state though, yet many many religious doctrines are based in fear, condemnation, hate, for anyone outside of their church or religion.

If you believe that victims of suicide are consigned to hellfire for all eternity, you might as well go to their funerals and preach to all of the friends and family who loved them that their loved one will suffer eternally from now on. Victims of rape, violence, neglect, abuse, poverty, other types of trauma, people with serious mental disorders, or anyone who wasn't lucky enough to survive their first suicide attempts (i've survived at least 4 myself), don't get any more chances and deserve to suffer, because God is always just and fair.

To many of us that have decided to reject religion, such a seemingly at-odds message (God is just and fair, but life is unfair, and some people just don't get second chances) is despicable and insane. It's people trying to assuage their own fear of the unknown, and guilt for their wrongdoings, by subscribing to a cosmology that of course they will be forgiven for their crimes and attain everlasting happiness and utopia, but everyone else is damned. A number of religions, and sects within religions, maintain exclusivity for their beliefs about who gets into heaven and who doesn't, yet adherents always believe there can be no doubt that they themselves are correct and everybody else is wrong.

I choose to believe that if God exists, He/She/They are at least as just and fair, compassionate and loving and forgiving, as the best human has ever been. If we devote ourselves to good deeds and works, not judging and condemning our fellow man, nor resting on our laurels and often arbitrary convictions, then we are more likely to find favor from any judge weighing the value of our lives and deeds, and the trajectory of our hearts.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#146

Post by lilsunnybee » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 3:29 PM UTC

cristianpascu wrote: post #89

milesf wrote: post #88

I was suicidal for an extended period of time many years ago. Doctors weren't sure what was wrong. The hospital emergency ward gave me clonazepam and ativan, but that was only a band-aid, and didn't help long term. Although I wanted to die, my fear of death and an eternity in the Lake of Fire was a far greater fear (Revelation 21:8). I'm not asking you to believe what I do. I'm just relaying what I went through, and…

It's funny that we tell our children not to do things that will certainly have bad consequences for them, like putting their hand in fire. But still, there's mockery around after-life scenarios like we'd know something for certain. There's so much mystery around our existence, consciousness, suffering, that mocking precautions about after-life is incredibly foolish.

There's so much mystery around our existence, consciousness, suffering, that after we die what must happen is either we achieve eternal paradise, or eternal suffering and agony; also by the way i know for sure i'm going to paradise, and you're going to hell unless you believe the same things i do.

Such a reasonable philosophy. /s

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#147

Post by lilsunnybee » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 3:37 PM UTC

milesf wrote: post #88

I was suicidal for an extended period of time many years ago. Doctors weren't sure what was wrong. The hospital emergency ward gave me clonazepam and ativan, but that was only a band-aid, and didn't help long term. Although I wanted to die, my fear of death and an eternity in the Lake of Fire was a far greater fear (Revelation 21:8). I'm not asking you to believe what I do. I'm just relaying what I went through, and…

Don't want to double-reply, but i really feel a reply i made to a post stemming from this one also applies here quite strongly.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8120459

You can be afraid of the unknown and an uncertain fate without being sure of your damnation. Being sure of your own salvation is almost just as bad, especially when it's to the exclusion of anyone elses, when your good works and virtue might pale in comparison to others supposedly going to hell. It's also very arrogant, prideful and foolhardy, and a wellspring of hatred, condemnation, violence, war throughout history.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#148

Post by coldtea » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 3:39 PM UTC

jemfinch wrote: post #99

milesf wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is full of mockers and fools. I know, because that was me for the first 20 years of my life. Now that I'm 45, I hope I am less foolish, and that I mock less. ----- "Well I'm not sure I'm wiser but some things are clearer And it's getting clear that I'm not here for long. So what am I to do with my few minutes here in this place?" - Steven Curtis Chapman https://soundcloud.com/stevencurtischapman/a-little-mo…

> The world is full of mockers and fools. And 84% of the population on this planet is religious... Quips aside, I regret nearly every thing I did that derived from the fanatical faith I held for my first quarter century, apart from finding my wife. I missed out on so much of life because of my devotion, and if I'm a mocker or a fool now, it's only because I have so few minutes in this place and regret having wasted s…

>And 84% of the population on this planet is religious...

This doesn't mean they are fools. In fact, historically speaking religion served to form the basis of civilization. From arts to legal practices, most of our culture has its origin on religious practices and roots, and has evolved from there on (there is tons of anthropological research about it).

Religion is not just about believing in some guy in the sky and his literal actions. Nor do all religions (and religious people) take such things literaly, the way some North Americans that believe in tele-evangelists and such do.

It has been mainly used as a way to codify and pass on social ideas, thoughts about the meaning of life, about how we should treat each other, what is valuable etc.

Sure there are fanatics and violence and all kind of bad things associated with religion. But there are such things associated with everything we do anyway: democracy, revolution, justice everything has been abused and turned to it's opposite at some point or another. Heck, even "humanitarian action" is often used as an excuse to exploit people.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#149

Post by coldtea » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 3:40 PM UTC

cphuntington97 wrote: post #81

Loughla wrote: post #22

The only thing I can't get over is how work focused all of the letters are. Sure, they all have family struggles, but they're less concerned about the particular struggles and more concerned about how that impacts their work. This article is phrased as if the entire Japanese culture is based on a disproportionate work-life balance to the extreme.

Are things any different anywhere else? Our hunting-gathering days are over. We used to chop down wood for the fire; now, we go to work, and push a button on the wall to stay warm. To work is to live in modern society.

>Our hunting-gathering days are over. We used to chop down wood for the fire; now, we go to work, and push a button on the wall to stay warm.

Well, billions of people still chop down wood for the fire. Including tons of people in the west -- in villages in eastern europe for example.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#150

Post by lilsunnybee » Fri, Aug 01, 2014, 3:41 PM UTC

Tyrant505 wrote: post #90

milesf wrote: post #88

I was suicidal for an extended period of time many years ago. Doctors weren't sure what was wrong. The hospital emergency ward gave me clonazepam and ativan, but that was only a band-aid, and didn't help long term. Although I wanted to die, my fear of death and an eternity in the Lake of Fire was a far greater fear (Revelation 21:8). I'm not asking you to believe what I do. I'm just relaying what I went through, and…

There is a difference between not wanting to live and wanting to kill yourself.

It is simply a matter of degree rather than a fundamental difference however.