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Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

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21–30 of 53 posts

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#21

I may be missing something but is the suggestion that local municipalities dig their last mile and run their own fiber? That's ... Not likely to succeed surely? I assume the actual dig out is a specialised job, with no private hire market, the back haul ... To where and to whom? Do most towns know where their nearest telehouse/interconnect is? The support tasks are difficult - and scale pretty well, but not if you ha…

A common approach is to incorporate a municipally owned subsidiary that hires the appropriate expertise. That's how the electric and plumbing networks were built in many towns, for example. A number have since been sold off (turned into privatized utility companies), but some are still city-owned. Other cities have gone for a pooled model, where the each city owns their utilities, but rather than administer them dire…

That's what some of us in Seattle are pressuring the city to do. Seattle City Light is a power company owned by the city and is already doing extensive work for the smart meter rehab. The idea is, while SCL is out digging around, lay last mile fiber.

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#22
Where it only makes sense to build one of some piece of infrastructure, isn't it really obvious that it should always be owned by the people? I suspect that this applies to quite a few things: cable data networks, wireless data networks (phone masts), electricity transmission grid, railway lines, roads, etc.

Historically, national infrastructure seems to tend towards becoming a monopoly anyway under private ownership. Further, when these are privately owned, we seem to end up with a lumbering private company regulated by a lumbering state bureaucracy which duplicates a large part of the accounts department of the private company to keep them in check.

This means that we have the worst of both worlds; no real choice, patchy service, high prices for the service and a whole load of hidden regulatory costs which come out of our taxes.

Anecdotally, I've consulted for a state regulated privately owned monopoly company, there is no way that private sector efficiency is driving these places, the bureaucracy is intense. Example: A decision from the company on whether it was acceptable to use a different, cheaper but better looking style of suspended ceiling took 6 months and went all the way to the board of directors of this multi billion pound company.

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#23

I may be missing something but is the suggestion that local municipalities dig their last mile and run their own fiber? That's ... Not likely to succeed surely? I assume the actual dig out is a specialised job, with no private hire market, the back haul ... To where and to whom? Do most towns know where their nearest telehouse/interconnect is? The support tasks are difficult - and scale pretty well, but not if you ha…

I recall reading about this being done, honestly. The community actually running the lines.

I wish I remembered where, I'd link it.

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#24
post #18

Just as an aside on one of the points they try to make (not about residential internet access): "Imagine the Director of Public Works using her smart phone to reschedule all the sprinklers in the city with just a few clicks." This makes me really uncomfortable. I think infrastructure needs to be physically separated from the public networks. Everything else just asks for somebody to cause mayhem, un- or intentionally…

I think what they are going for is: the Director of Public Works can call the sprinkler maintainers directly. Not that they literally have an app, just lower bureaucracy.

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#25
post #18

Just as an aside on one of the points they try to make (not about residential internet access): "Imagine the Director of Public Works using her smart phone to reschedule all the sprinklers in the city with just a few clicks." This makes me really uncomfortable. I think infrastructure needs to be physically separated from the public networks. Everything else just asks for somebody to cause mayhem, un- or intentionally…

So, would you propose a dedicated physical wire for every service?

You have to begin weighing the differences between physical vs. logical separation in network design at a point. MSR did two really good studies on network reliability, when they found that larger Aspen trees are significantly more reliable than smaller ones. If you're to build a large tree for every system, you're going to have a prohibitively expensive infrastructure.

In addition to this, the complexity of having multiple bespoke systems for every time someone calls something special, and dedicated results in higher system, and network administration cost. Because the scales of various networks are going to be different, their implementation will probably vary greatly as well, giving your engineers massive headaches. It's been shown that engineers, and software result in the highest number of failures in production systems.

Lastly, physical separation is no longer an easy excuse for security. At some point, that separation, intentionally, or unintentionally is going to get broken. It's best to begin operating from an idea that shared infrastructure will be more resilient, cheaper, and easier-to-operate.

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#26
post #25
post #18

Just as an aside on one of the points they try to make (not about residential internet access): "Imagine the Director of Public Works using her smart phone to reschedule all the sprinklers in the city with just a few clicks." This makes me really uncomfortable. I think infrastructure needs to be physically separated from the public networks. Everything else just asks for somebody to cause mayhem, un- or intentionally…

So, would you propose a dedicated physical wire for every service? You have to begin weighing the differences between physical vs. logical separation in network design at a point. MSR did two really good studies on network reliability, when they found that larger Aspen trees are significantly more reliable than smaller ones. If you're to build a large tree for every system, you're going to have a prohibitively expens…

> So, would you propose a dedicated physical wire for every service?

That's actually in a twisted sense what the article is advocating. Instead of relying on commodity communications, they advocate the city putting in their own infrastructure so they can do things like this.

The article is generally good, but that section is strange. You unequivocally do not need to run high speed internet to homes in order to move towards a "smart city" - wiring up those things they mention is orders of magnitude cheaper than running fiber to every home (funny how surveillance cameras is a suddenly a good thing, by the way).

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#27
post #20

Community fiber optics is the way to go. In Bucharest, in 2000, when fiber was really expensive a small community, like a block of apartments, would get much better quality service by sharing a business type of connection than buying for each apartment a "home/personal" service. The initial cost is that someone needs to step up, build the infrastructure and start the sharing service. In Western countries this might b…

How would these Internet "coop's" deal with the tech support? I would worry that regular users would constantly have all sorts of problems with spyware, viruses, cheap APs/routers and broken network configurations.

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#28
I'm especially enthusiastic about their endorsement of open access.

I'm generally skeptical of such things, but I can see the point in local government (community != government, that's newspeak) taking a lead in running fiber in much the same way they do electricity and plumbing, mostly because it seems that fiber is sufficiently future proof - it seems plausible that transmission technology on fiber can keep up with domestic applications without having to rely on horrible stop-gap tech like ADSL.

But one thing is laying a cable, that's a largely neutral and objective undertaking, another is running a good ISP - that's a completely different beast. I strongly doubt a government run ISP is going to be great, especially if something happens and it turns into a cost centre, or if it's "awarded" to the highest bidder to run, or stuffed full of overpaid incompetents by way of political nepotism. As with anything government run, when first things starts going down that route, it's incredibly difficult to reverse.

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#29
This is exactly what we've been doing in Sweden the last 10 years, at least.

Local electrical companies usually offer a city wide fiber grid in small towns. Sometimes housing companies that own a few apartment buildings have their own fiber grid. And ontop of that there are communities in more rural areas that come together and pay for the work to have fiber dug to their houses.

But that's just fiber, they still need an ISP for internet service and there we usually have at least a dozen different companies to choose from.

Re: Hate Your ISP? Maybe You Need Community Fiber

#30
I wonder if there is a way to adopt something analogous to a franchise model here. It strikes me that only the communities that are really, really engaged are going to be able to pull this off (which is true of most public works projects). That being said, it would be great to not have every small town and borough have to figure everything out for themselves. A franchise operator for a fast food restaurant doesn't have to worry about where to buy burgers, the brand of deep fryers, or even the optimal amount of time to fry the tater tots. If there was a full on recipe for doing this that is proven to work, a small number of citizens might be able to make it happen even in places where the local government is ambivalent. A proper setup would include some national branding to help with PR (I.e. Every article in every newspaper about community broadband would use the same name for it). It would include marketing materials for the public as well as briefing packs for local officials, legal briefs for attorneys, etc... On the technical side it would recommend specific hardware, suppliers, and designs.

The advantage to such an approach would be to harness economy of scale at a national level, but allow local communities to drive the process and own the network.

I'm not sure how you would structure it to avoid creating another monopoly in the parent company of the franchises. But perhaps a nonprofit or a corporation 100% owned by the community franchisees would work.

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