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A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

newyorker.com

111–120 of 183 posts

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#111
> by tradition, a mother who killed herself but not her children was thought to be truly wicked.

Not sure if cultural relativism here should take precedence and just say "ok it is their culture, who am I to judge it". On the other hand, it is kind of dreadful that this was so common, it got to be a cultural tradition.

There is something dreadful about it. You know "you bow before the elders", "take your shoes before you enter someone's home", "slaughter your children before you kill yourself".

I guess, like the article says, suicide is one of those "unknown knowns" that is ingrained in the social subconsciousness. They mention samurai and sepuku and how certain people were "praised" in a way for committing an honorable suicide.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#112

>The constant screaming and the running, along with chronic exhaustion, produce in him a state of low-level panic, which is also a state of acute focus. It is as if his thinking mind, his doubting and critical and interpreting mind, had shut down and been replaced by a simpler mechanism that serves the body. This is extreme, however, it strikes me as a mild version of operating a steam locomotive. While undertaking t…

Sounds like a moderately fun video game?

While lacking the romantic appeal of a steam locomotive, Pax Reactor [1] is basically a 1375 MW boiler. Pretty fun until everything hits the fan.

[1] http://henrik.zsolt-frei.net/Fun/Software/pax.html

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#113

[Suicide rates] go down in wartime and go up again afterward. Why would that be?

I'm not a psychologist, so I won't comment on the _why_, but veterans have an extremely high suicide rate. http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2427 (the PDF link has the data) > Of the 147,763 suicides reported in 21 states, 27,062 (18.3%) > were identified as having history of U.S. military service > on death certificates This article has some discussion on how this data is hard to collect: http://www…

Many sources of depression stem from feeling trapped with no way out, or to be controlled in such a way that's counter to their sense of self (they feel out of control and unable to influence their own destiny, leaving an unfillable void at the center of their emotions) -- suicide often becomes a way for the individual to assert their self and grant themselves agency in these circumstances.

I've had combat explained to me like this. Imagine you're out in the world one day, grocery shopping, and a guy starts threatening you in the parking lot. In the normal world, you call the police or defend yourself if you need to, or get in your car and drive away. But your options are significantly limited. This problem or situation has other possible outcomes, but society has put artificial constraints the eliminates several effective resolutions.

A soldier in war has far fewer constraints. If some guy is bothering them, they can simply kill that person and resolve the issue. Or they can run them over in their armored vehicle, or bayonet them, or beat them with their rifle until they stop moving. An entire world of options opens up that allows you to simply resolve conflicts -- even if these resolutions are frowned upon in the normal society. Society sets up all these lines you can't cross, except in war you can cross all over them.

There's thousands of these kinds of issues in warfare, where normally impossible issues suddenly become trivial. Need to get from point A to point B? Steal a car. Need to get information from a guy? Beat him till he talks. Building in the way? Blow it up.

When a solider returns home, suddenly these societal restraints are locked back on them. You're suddenly told that you can't cross these lines anymore. But as anybody who's engaged in any kind of social line crossing can talk about, it's hard to roll that back once you've done it. As a result they feel trapped and disempowered. Having previously had literal power over life and death, you're suddenly trying to figure out how to fight with a soccer mom and her kids over a parking spot at the mall -- and you're trying to keep yourself blocked in by lines you now know aren't really there.

In combat you could just declare the minivan a threat and open up the 30 cal. Here you might have to go find another spot.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#114
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife is Japanese (born and raised there) and she does not look at it that way. She says people who commit suicide are losers can't apologize properly and work hard to make up for their mistake, or people who don't have the guts to weather through the hard times. Also, the whole samurai/bushido thing essentially doesn't exist for anyone under fifty over there. I went to Japan with my family in January, and I had a…

No offense, but making trip to Japan and eating at Joyful is like going to the Bay area and eating at Denny's.

On the flip side, Denny's in Japan is freaking amazing.

Also, if you know of a Joyfull in the Bay area let me know.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#115

By tradition, suicide can absolve guilt and cancel debt, can restore honor and prove loyalty. In this respect I feel Japan's culture is superior to ours in the USA. For example, I felt Mark Madoff's suicide was entirely appropriate, a final act that put the rest of his life in a more dignified context. Yet every article one reads about it treats the suicide as an additional disgrace, yet another horrible thing we can…

My wife is Japanese (born and raised there) and she does not look at it that way. She says people who commit suicide are losers can't apologize properly and work hard to make up for their mistake, or people who don't have the guts to weather through the hard times. Also, the whole samurai/bushido thing essentially doesn't exist for anyone under fifty over there. I went to Japan with my family in January, and I had a…

She says people who commit suicide are losers can't apologize properly and work hard to make up for their mistake, or people who don't have the guts to weather through the hard times.

Charming attitude.

I doubt that many suicidal people have anything much to atone for, more likely they had some horrible things done to them or are just wired in a way that makes them deeply unhappy.

I don't see suicide as brave or cowardly. Depending on the situation, suicide can be in an individual's best interest -- a terminally ill patient in extreme pain who chooses to undergo a painless physician-assisted suicide would be a good example.

Even beyond terminal illness, I imagine that there are some people who have either been through such massive trauma, or are wired so badly, that suicide is a better option than living in misery. Granted, depressed individuals may not be capable of making decisions in their long-term self-interest, but I still wouldn't condemn every suicide as a "bad" decision, let alone "cowardly", "shameful", or any of the other pejoratives that come up around this topic.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#116
post #55

The other thing that got me very curious is how did a monk develop heart disease. I mean he must have been very very active and probably eating healthy.

As the article mentions, Buddhist monks in East Asia these days mostly don't follow the ascetic lifestyle of days past. They smoke, drink, eat meat. Some of them may even marry.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#117
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is full of mockers and fools. I know, because that was me for the first 20 years of my life. Now that I'm 45, I hope I am less foolish, and that I mock less. ----- "Well I'm not sure I'm wiser but some things are clearer And it's getting clear that I'm not here for long. So what am I to do with my few minutes here in this place?" - Steven Curtis Chapman https://soundcloud.com/stevencurtischapman/a-little-mo…

> The world is full of mockers and fools. And 84% of the population on this planet is religious... Quips aside, I regret nearly every thing I did that derived from the fanatical faith I held for my first quarter century, apart from finding my wife. I missed out on so much of life because of my devotion, and if I'm a mocker or a fool now, it's only because I have so few minutes in this place and regret having wasted s…

Sounds like you and I have had different faith experiences. I didn't grow up with it as a kid, so all of what I know I've had to discover as an adult.

As far as mockers and fools, you only have to look as far as the comment section of YouTube to find a whole plethora of them. If the Internet had been around when I was growing up, I would have been right there among them.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#118
post #111

> by tradition, a mother who killed herself but not her children was thought to be truly wicked. Not sure if cultural relativism here should take precedence and just say "ok it is their culture, who am I to judge it". On the other hand, it is kind of dreadful that this was so common, it got to be a cultural tradition. There is something dreadful about it. You know "you bow before the elders", "take your shoes before…

I'm not sure anyone's advocating for a value-free and uncritical judgment of every last cultural practice, and personally I don't think any practice is above critical review.

At the same time, though, I think it's important to try and bring a holistic approach and an awareness that every culture probably has some such flaws. By "holistic approach" I mean remembering that "slaughter your children before you kill yourself" probably isn't a dangling horrifying imperative, it's probably an intersection of the problematic side of some values that have positive sides as well (for example, you could get it from "good mothers do not neglect the future of their children" + group identity over individual identity + a heavy personal accountability/status culture, all of which have some upsides as well as down). And of course, just like your favorite band, your favorite culture probably has something equally horrifying you accept (millions of abortions, automobile deaths as fact of life, elder neglect/abuse, money as status, whatever...).

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#119
post #103
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world is full of mockers and fools. I know, because that was me for the first 20 years of my life. Now that I'm 45, I hope I am less foolish, and that I mock less. ----- "Well I'm not sure I'm wiser but some things are clearer And it's getting clear that I'm not here for long. So what am I to do with my few minutes here in this place?" - Steven Curtis Chapman https://soundcloud.com/stevencurtischapman/a-little-mo…

So is mockers and fools two separate categories?

Yeah, I think you can be a fool who doesn't mock others, or someone who mocks and isn't necessarily foolish. I'm just saying that I was both, and to some degree still am. Depends on who I'm being measured against.

Re: A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

#120
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are at least two religions for which belief in one constitutes damnation in the other. At least one of them has to be wrong. Of course, to any person, his religion can't be wrong. (If it can, then it is at least in some sense not "his religion.") So to every strong believer, someone else's afterlife precautions are either superfluous or futile. Of course, that doesn't mean the question should be taken lightly,…

When you think about it, once you accept that an afterlife is something worth worrying about, you're left with hundreds if not thousands of unfalsifiable, contradictory (and even antagonistic) folk tales and the task of choosing one and hoping you're right -- although for most people, this question is answered for them by the circumstances of their birth, and it seems normal, even obvious. So really, simply choosing…

Yeah, but how many folk tales do you know of have our calendar measured after the life of one man? 2014 AD or more fully "Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Christi".

How many of those tales give you a single point of failure, that if you can explain away one point then internally the whole belief system collapses? (http://bit.ly/1uNpRwT with a modern explanation at http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-resurrection-of-jesus)

Seems to me there might be more to the story than just a random dart throw at a wall of choices.

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