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Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

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Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#101

Post by jwatte »

Shivetya wrote: post #45
pptr1 wrote: post #28

This just shows me that Tesla is able to execute. The Gigafactory, opening up patents, rapidly growing charger network, and the eventual $35k Gen III tells me they have tons of potential in the future. Tesla is thinking big. They want everyone in the world to eventually have a electric car. I think they will own a significant share of premium market after they release the Gen III. However, they will be cars that peop…

Okay, but when does the factory first come online? The projections are for by 2020, so where do any possible cost savings for the III come from? Unless we can expect it to slip a few more years like the X did. I am hoping for a 200 mile range mid size, but I doubt Tesla will be first. I am also expecting range extender vehicles to have much more popularity initially because to be honest, I don't have time for 30 minu…

I have been driving the 80 mile "real range" Leaf for three years and it gets me to work and back without recharging. Because it charges when parked, I experience zero charge time.

If you are single without family (so only one car) and travel with car a lot (skiing in state or whatever) then the current electrics aren't for you. But you are in a minority part of society (although probably over-represented on H N :-)

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#102

Post by BrandonMarc »

fancyketchup wrote: post #93
BrandonMarc wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind we'll still be refining oil / petroleum for other uses (lubricants, ink, plastic, fertilizer, diesel, etc). If this is independent of the refining into gas, then all's well with your math.

Do cars typically run on plastic and fertilizer where you're from? If it's true that a Volt can drive 25ish miles on the electricity used to refine a gallon of gas, then substituting electric miles for gas ones is a wash in terms of net electricity usage. Or are you trying to say something more subtle that I'm just missing?

If this is independent of the refining into gas, then all's well with your math.

I think we agree ... that if there's less gas being refined, then there's less energy being used to do that ... if and only if gas refining is independent of refining into all the other products. If, on the other hand, refining into the other products efficiently ends up making gas anyway, then that's different.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#103

Post by erikpukinskis »

jacquesm wrote: post #61
azunds wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With current pv technology this probably will not be a problem

What technology generates the current has nothing to do with whether or the GPs concerns are valid. It's all about transportation, not just generation. Grand parent mentioned the grid , not the plants.

You need a lot less grid if you're generating power on the roof of the building you park your car in.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#104

Post by TD-Linux »

dm2 wrote: post #10
Kayou wrote: post #6

Why are most of the lithium cells cylindrical, while most of our devices are cuboid? (I think of phones, laptops, external battries... but phones and most laptops have flat lithium cells nowadays). Is cylindrical less expensive? Is it more secure? It seems like a waste of space to me.

I think they use standard 18650 batteries (might be wrong) and there have been discussions from Tesla saying that the round batteries also have the benefit of allowing an air gap to insulate and help mitigate overheating problems. Plus they are mass produced, cheap, and have a relatively high energy density. The new factory might work on creating some new battery technologies though, not sure. Ideally yes, you want t…

The Panasonic 18650B cell has the highest energy to weight ratio of any commercially available lithium-ion cell. This is by far the biggest factor. It's also the cell used by many solar car teams for the same reason.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#105

Post by jacquesm »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #103
jacquesm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What technology generates the current has nothing to do with whether or the GPs concerns are valid. It's all about transportation, not just generation. Grand parent mentioned the grid , not the plants.

You need a lot less grid if you're generating power on the roof of the building you park your car in.

Do the math. It will not work. Sunlight in full sun with the sun at 90 degrees relative to the panels, in winter (cool panels) will give you about 200 watts / square meter of surface of electricity at the exit of the inverter.

You'll need a little bit less grid, definitely not a lot. Those buildings are typically multi-layer and don't have a roof over the top layer (though not always) so it's not a trivial modification either. You could design that in from day 1 of course and it will help a little bit but that's borderline making money rather than a significant reduction in infrastructure.

Say your carpark is 100 meters long and 30 meters wide, that will house 50x4x4 = 800 cars to charge but you're collecting (on a good day) no more than 100x30x200 = 600 KW. It's not nothing, but if you take into account that a single normal car charger is already 3 KW to charge a full park of such cars would require 2.4 MW. And that's the slowest rate of charge for those cars, go faster and the requirements shoot up. Best case with only 4 decks of cars you're looking at a 25% reduction. Worst case not more than 10%. Good but not great.

The grid is definitely going to see some structural modifications before we can push the equivalent of our current gasoline consumption through it.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#106

Post by jacquesm »

TD-Linux wrote: post #99
jacquesm wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it does not, this is about Tesla's and Panasonics 'gigafactory' which will make Lithium-Ion batteries in a cylindrical form factor. Lithium Polymer batteries (or LiPo for short) are a special case of Lithium-Ion batteries. They are sold in a 'pouch' format (and they are not the first to use a format like that, for instance, in the polaroid cartridges there used to be a battery in a similar form factor (polapul…

This is exactly backwards. Traditional Li-Ion batteries have a liquid electrolyte, and Li-Poly have a solid polymer electrolyte. Both batteries consist of anode/electrolyte/cathode rolled up. In the case of a "pouch" cell, they are rolled up flat, and a cylinderical cell has them rolled up in a cylinder. There is actually no limitation for the shape - you can totally make a Li-ion battery with liquid electrolyte in a…

Interesting! I just spent the better part of today reading up on all this because I found it hard to accept that I'd remember something so terribly wrong. Turns out that the names have changed over time to denote various packages and gel/liquid/solid combinations. Wikipedia has a whole page on the subject and it almost seems as if they made the naming of these battery classes confusing on purpose:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer_battery

Enjoy the read, I certainly did and it turns out the situation is a lot more complex (also historically) than I remembered it, but my memory wasn't quite as faulty as you made me feel initially (fortunately!).

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#107

Post by SyncTheory13 »

swimfar wrote: post #83
grecy wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of innovating, they have been, essentially, polishing a turd. In North America, yes. The rest of the automotive industry has been advancing a lot. I love that BMW get the same power/torque from a 3.0 liter engine as Ford/GM do out of a 6+ liter engine.

Are you comparing a naturally aspirated engine with a turbo-charged engine? Also, I don't think it's fair to compare truck/utility engines (which generally run on regular gas) with the engines that go into BMW's highest performance cars. And, the 2.7 liter V6 which is going into the new F-150 supposedly makes 325hp. http://truckyeah.jalopnik.com/2015-ford-f-150-weighs-less-th...

2015 Mustang 2.3L 4-cylinder has ~330 hp.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#108

Post by zurn »

snarfy wrote: post #33

Has there been any analysis on the amount of joule energy pumped out of all of the current gas stations on a daily basis? I'm worried the current electric grid is woefully insufficient for a world full of electric cars. I know their are plenty of electric lines out there running at greater than 100% of their rated capacity already.

The electricity grid is not a static thing, it is upgraded according to demand. Demand doesn't change overnight.

Re: Panasonic and Tesla Sign Agreement for the Gigafactory

#109

Post by eru »

davman wrote: post #32
outworlder wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you working in IT?

Yes, I'm an entry-level SysAdmin

Work on improving your income. It's easy in IT, if you are willing to invest some hours in self-improvement and are willing to switch around jobs.
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