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S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

dealbook.nytimes.com

171–180 of 195 posts

Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#171
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Yup. It shows the power of creditors when they take to the courts. It seems odd that that all the other creditors accepted a haircut ... and the one who didn't is causing the present situation.

There is nothing odd about it. Argentina agreed to a debt contract without a collective action clause so that they could sell bonds at a higher premium. When they later needed a collective action clause to enforce the majority will on the minority, they complained that the agreement was unfair. But it was an agreement the country's leadership agreed to; the law in this case is fairly straightforward.

Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#172
post #167
post #155

Everybody involved in the 2001 default knew this was going to happen. And it can even be said that Argentina didn’t plan to pay what they promised from the beginning, although I cannot attest to it. One detail I want to add to the discussion is that in the past few years the global panorama changed for Argentina, they sit on top of the second largest shale gas reserve in the world, and plan to extract it. They need m…

Chile is more stable, Colombia has better weather and Perú has tastier food.

Chile also has better weather, though I agree that Perú has tastier food.

Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#173
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because there isn't numerous examples throughout history where debt-free fiat currency flourished. We have been conditioned by neoclassical economics and have refused to confront the pyramid scheme.

Can you name one such debt-free currency? Preferably one that works in a modern economy? Don't forget: A lot of our risk-management and wealth today depends on derivatives and a well running financial market. To say that a completely different but unproven system works better is a very tough point to defend.

Well let me preface with this: I'm not an economist and of course harbor my own bias(just like everybody else), but I'm educated enough to recognize when systems and people are being gamed.

Why can't our government(or any government for that matter) print their own money and issue it to its people, which is then freed from the private central bank's interest? Instead, we allow the banking industry to self-regulate and it in turn does what's in its self-interest.

I've heard historians and anti-neoclassic-economists refer back to the success of Tally Sticks(1100 - 1854), Colonial Script(1764 –– 1776), and Roman currency before they switched to a gold standard. But, I'm not an authority on this and sincerely would appreciate any literature that contradicts it.

The only modern example would be cyprtocurrency, and the verdict is still out on that. Hell, even if more states and nations moved to North Dakota's banking approach we'd be better off.

I don't have all the answers, but I know humans can do better and it starts with the average-person continually investing time to educate themselves about monetary policies and the history of currencies.

The current monetary system has feed global wars, imperialism and possibly the worst financial inequality in mankind's history. Unless you're a banker or in the financial industry, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to try something new?

Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#174
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, given all this hassle, the papers weren't worth nearly their nominal value - and they actually gave money to the original lender, while Argentina didn't; so on that regard they're more fair than Argentina's government at least.

Argentina did give money (or rather, replacement bonds) to the original lender. Not 100%, but an amount they agreed to (which could equally well describe the holdouts' purchases). And Argentina has kept up the interest payments to the original lenders, right up until the holdouts got this court injunction to stop them.

> "Not 100%, but an amount they agreed to"

They are holdouts precisely because they didn't agree to a haircut. Argentina declined to write a collective action clause into their bonds so that they could sell them for a higher premium. This is the price associated with accepting that risk.

Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#175
post #148
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also see http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/in-hedge-fund-argenti... "The hedge fund firm of billionaire Paul E. Singer has about 300 employees, yet it has managed to force Argentina, a nation of 41 million people, into a position where it now has to contemplate a humbling surrender." "Argentina on Wednesday failed to make scheduled payments on its government bonds. The country has the money to pay the bonds. But…

With all due respect, these arguments belie the law. If this were a case of leders screwing over the people by having governments re-write laws (see: student loans) perhaps more sympathy would be in order. This is a case where the borrowers have tried to disregard US law, in its entirety. In that respect, I'm not sure there is anything bad to imply about the hedge funds who simply made bets on the integrity of US Law…

You're wrong. Elliott didn't give Argentina anything that it wants returned. The company just waited for the moment to buy bonds for almost nothing from the real creditors with the bet "if we get it on court, we win big, if we lose, we lose a little."

From the same article:

"Legal filings indicate that the face value of its Argentine government bonds was around $170 million, but the firm most likely acquired many of them for much less than that. Elliott and other investors are now seeking more than $1.5 billion, which includes years of unpaid interest."

Elliott just blackmails Argentina to extract many times more than it would otherwise be reasonable (without the blackmail condition).

Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Brazil forbade domestic contracts in dollar (with a few exceptions, mainly leasing contracts for imported vehicles). This is an interesting and often overlooked aspect of monetary policy in the US. In the US, we are used to the dollar being the single currency domestically for virtually all domestic transactions, and even used to it being used abroad (which extends our purchasing power greatly) as well as in most b…

Can you (or someone) explain how black market transactions in USD act as a free loan to the US government? This isn't intuitive to me.

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Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you (or someone) explain how black market transactions in USD act as a free loan to the US government? This isn't intuitive to me.

Anytime a dollar is printed, the person who receives the physical dollar bill is a creditor to the US government. The government is in debt to the holder of the bill, just as they would be in debt to a purchaser of a government bond. This is why counterfeit money is so bad - it's literally forging a debt of the government that never existed (essentially forging the government's name on a contract that says "I promise…

Thanks to both of you for your explanations. I think I'm beginning to understand it, though it I find it far more comprehensible when considered in the context of a gold-backed dollar than fiat.

Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#178
post #175
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, these arguments belie the law. If this were a case of leders screwing over the people by having governments re-write laws (see: student loans) perhaps more sympathy would be in order. This is a case where the borrowers have tried to disregard US law, in its entirety. In that respect, I'm not sure there is anything bad to imply about the hedge funds who simply made bets on the integrity of US Law…

You're wrong. Elliott didn't give Argentina anything that it wants returned. The company just waited for the moment to buy bonds for almost nothing from the real creditors with the bet "if we get it on court, we win big, if we lose, we lose a little." From the same article: "Legal filings indicate that the face value of its Argentine government bonds was around $170 million, but the firm most likely acquired many of…

[deleted]

Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#179
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chile is more stable, Colombia has better weather and Perú has tastier food.

Chile also has better weather, though I agree that Perú has tastier food.

I enjoyed summer weather in Chile and it is fantastic, but right now it is winter, and I've heard winter is something my Colombian skin could not survive.

Re: S.&P. Says Argentina Has Defaulted

#180
post #132

Let's hope this doesn't precipitate that favoured bread and circuses smokescreen of Argentine politics, viz idiotic sabre-rattling over the Falklands.

This comment is naive. Our "sabre-rattling" over the Malvinas Islands was done during our vicious, murderous military dictatorship in the 70s/early 80s. We now have a democracy. Any dispute about the islands is done via diplomatic means (regardless of whether you believe the claim has merit, diplomacy is the only legitimate way to resolve it). No sabre-rattling is possible. Don't confuse democratic Argentina with pas…

>Our "sabre-rattling" over the Malvinas Islands was done during our vicious, murderous military dictatorship in the 70s/early 80s.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/12/argentina-falkl...

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/feb/05/falklands-under-ou...

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