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Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

richsoil.com

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Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#61
post #43
post #6

This is where I really prefer the European model[1] - you heat the whole house with hot water. You make hot water with cheap natural gas. If you're lucky enough, you can even use geothermal. Then you use insulation. This especially is something that feels nobody in the US has heard of. At least in California. As a result, your radiators are turned down to 2 out of 10 all day (heating turns off automatically overnight…

> Then you use insulation. This especially is something that feels nobody in the US has heard of. At least in California. In defense of Californians, most of us rarely, if ever, turn on a heater and most homes here don't have AC. Our heating and cooling costs are a small fraction of those of you who live in places that have seasons.

> In defense of Californians, most of us rarely, if ever, turn on a heater and most homes here don't have AC

Then why on earth was I freezing my balls off in Menlo Park this November? The weeks before we realised our house even had heating were miserable. And even afterwards, as soon as the heaters weren't blowing hot air, or you were more than 3ft away, you were instantly cold and miserable.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#62
post #9

Well, not heating your house enough can also cost you your house as mold and ice can grow in very cold zone of your house. But I do like the ingenuity of the solution. Shit Norwegians Say: “There’s no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes”

Yes mold is very annoying, but maybe he can experiment with dehumidifiers in key areas to mitigate it. Of course it would probably kill a lot of his energy savings.

Dehumidifiers are reasonably efficient, and in a cold-weather climate, the waste heat is actually a bonus as it contributes to interior heating.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#63
Energy is abundant, there is no need to shiver in the cold. Solar forced warm air is inexpensive, simple technology that is very underutilized.

Solar photovoltaics get all the attention, but solar warm air/water is less expensive and simple to manufacture.

http://sunmatesolarpanels.com/content/view/2/31/

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#64
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then you use insulation. This especially is something that feels nobody in the US has heard of. At least in California. In defense of Californians, most of us rarely, if ever, turn on a heater and most homes here don't have AC. Our heating and cooling costs are a small fraction of those of you who live in places that have seasons.

> > Then you use insulation. This especially is something that feels nobody in the US has heard of. At least in California. There's lots of poorly insulated homes in California, either because they are old or cheaply-made, or because they are in places that have milder weather where it is less necessary. But there are also lots of well-insulated homes in California. > In defense of Californians, most of us rarely, if…

My 2 bed apartment, with both people working from home pretty regularly, and floor-to-ceiling windows on one side, costs Given those costs, it's very difficult to get a return on better insulation or insulated windows.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#65
post #6

This is where I really prefer the European model[1] - you heat the whole house with hot water. You make hot water with cheap natural gas. If you're lucky enough, you can even use geothermal. Then you use insulation. This especially is something that feels nobody in the US has heard of. At least in California. As a result, your radiators are turned down to 2 out of 10 all day (heating turns off automatically overnight…

its done that way in Russia as well, at least in the city. the downside is they have to turn off the hot water occasionally to do cleaning, which means no hot water for 1-3 days. in village homes they use pechkas [1]. a giant radiant heater that uses firewood and sits in the middle of the home. most are adapted so that you can use them to cook too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_oven

In moscow, they do this in what is (nominally) summer for almost 2 weeks. I thought the water would be chilly, but if I took brisk showers I'd be ok. The first time I tried I nearly gave myself hypothermia -- no exaggeration, I was under a blanket unable to stop shaking for 10 minutes -- and figured out why I saw kettles in people's bathrooms when I was a guest in their apartments. Thank god for the gym which was in a different area of the city.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#66
This is a cool approach and actually there is some federal research money available for it. https://arpa-e-foa.energy.gov/ (third one down)

"DELIVERING EFFICIENT LOCAL THERMAL AMENITIES (DELTA)"

We (http://www.flair.zone) were looking into grant funding and saw it. All I could think of was heated/air conditioned underwear lol.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#67
OK, Paul Wheaton simply doesn't know what he's talking about:

"I think that this does produce some savings, but not as much as you might think. If you set your thermostat to a constant 70, the heater works a little at a time throughout the day. If you drop it to 50 at night or in the middle of the day, the heater stops working, but then when the time comes to warm the house again, the heater has to work at full power for a long time to get the temp back up - thus losing a lot of your savings."

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG

Heat losses are driven by two factors:

1. The temperature differential between the hot and cold sides.

2. The thermal conductivity (or exchange) between the hot and cold sides.

That's straight out of Newton's Law of Cooling / Fourier's Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convective_heat_transfer#Newton...

If you're running heat constantly, you're maintaining a constant flow of heat from your interior to the exterior. That is, you're maintaining a high heat exchange rate to the exterior, and you're constantly wasting a large portion of heat.

If you're heating only while you need a warm interior, then as the interior temperature falls, the energy flux to the exterior decreases. You're no longer pumping heat into the external environment.

Yes, you'll run your furnace/heating system continuously for a while in raising the interior temperature, but that is largely adding heat to the interior space, not to the exterior.

The net is expending less energy.

Your most efficient strategy is to turn interior heat down to the minimum essential level (ultimately: enough to keep pipes from freezing), or the minimum level the thermostat allows (often ~50F in the US). My own practice is generally to turn any heating system off entirely at night.

From a moisture management perspective, you also win as cold air has a lower absolute humidity, that is, the quantity of water it can hold is lower. Heating cold humid air reduces the relative humidity, allowing walls and surfaces to dry out.

The overnight heat loss is also a very clear sign that Paul Wheaton is dealing with an exceptionally poorly insulated structure. And a very poor grasp of thermodynamics.

The same principle holds for AC as well, though here you want to increase the temperature setting at which the AC comes on, or disable AC entirely while you're out of the home.

A better way of thinking of this is to minimize the energy input (heating or cooling) when it's not needed.

See:

http://www.uswitch.com/energy-saving/guides/heating-on-all-t...

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2970/does-turning-d...

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/thermostats

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#68
post #38

Given that he uses electric heating, it's pretty funny the electric company wanted him to switch to florescent. That buys you nothing in those months where the heater is on. What I'd really like to know is: why not switch to gas?

He mentions homesteading at the end. I guess he doesn't have a natural gas supply available. Propane and fuel oil aren't the completely obvious win over electric that natural gas is.

We haven't found natural gas on the retail level to be any less expensive than propane. Perhaps it depends on where you live.

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#69
post #29
post #17

This is why changing out incandescents for CFL's in a heated house does almost nothing for saving energy... and if the heat comes from electricity, nothing for saving money, either.

Of course it does. Heating up a hole in your ceiling does not efficiently warm the occupant. You want to introduce heat low and near occupants. Also, changing out multiple incandescents means more manufacturing, more truck deliveries to the store, more manufacturing, etc. vs. using a single LED bulb for two decades. If you live in coal country, then you definitely want to reduce your electrical load and instead rely…

Manufacturing and shipping costs of incandescents are very small relative to their energy utilization, as reflected in costs.

Your point about fixtures and heat losses through ceilings are actually well-taken. Recessed "can" lighting is actually a huge pathway for heat loss two ways:

1. The radiant heat from bulbs which is transferred into the ceiling and attic spaces, rather than the living space.

2. Other heat flow losses, including often very significant airflow, through the lighting fixtures. Thorsten Chlupp (mentioned elsewhere) includes lighting fixtures among his anti-penetration measures. He also keeps his wiring and plumbing runways along the inner insulates spaces, rather than outside the thermal barrier (with concomitant envelope penetrations).

Re: Micro heaters cut 87% off my electric heat bill

#70

People should check out WattVision. It's a little device that attaches to your electrical meter so you can monitor your electrical usage. What I've found is that almost all of our home's electrical usage comes from heating (heaters, clothes dryers, and hot water). Everything else is almost a rounding error. For example: I saw almost no change when we switched from incandescents to LED lighting (even in the summer whe…

Yup, if you're heating your house incandescents just lessen heating load.

However, if you're cooling your house incandescents are a triple whammy as AC isn't nearly as efficient as heating.

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