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Supreme Court’s new rules on abstract patents hit Apple v. Samsung

arstechnica.com

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Re: Supreme Court’s new rules on abstract patents hit Apple v. Samsung

#41
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Apple's lawyers are just trying to make it sound more concrete than Samsung's lawyers are trying to make it sound abstract. The key difference is complexity has no bearing on patentability, but abstractness does. To be fair, the claims do require all those elements, so it really is narrower than "moving an image to unlock a device". You could imagine a number of implementations of the latter that would not be cov…

Yes, but what aspect of it is novel? Images, touch screens, animation? None of it is new; "the conclusion that when a patent simply arranges old elements with each performing the same function it had been known to perform and yields no more than one would expect from such an arrangement, the combination is obvious." I would venture to say the patent NEVER should have been granted, even under pre-Alice conditions.

Parent was talking about complexity, I simply corrected them to say that it was about abstraction, and why it mattered. I was not making any point about the novelty or other quality metrics of the patent.

However, now that you've brought it up, possibly outside of material science, every invention in the history of engineering falls under the description of "old elements doing old things producing expected results". Taking that quote out of context misses a very important question: was it obvious beforehand that such a result was desirable enough to put those elements together?

The answer to your question of "what's novel" is, literally, the combination of elements and the difference it presents over prior art. However, at a higher level, what this quantitative approach misses is this: slide-to-unlock provides a convenient, usable and visually appealing way to unlock a phone. You'll note that these adjectives are some that Apple users regularly attribute to Apple products (since before the iPhone!). These qualities are arguably a primary reason for their success.

Sure, when boiled down to their implementation, they don't look so impressive, yet few others are said to match Apple's level of polish. Why is that the case if such features are so easy to implement? Maybe because the feature itself is not obvious. Such qualitative aspects are not always apparent from looking at the claims alone.

Re: Supreme Court’s new rules on abstract patents hit Apple v. Samsung

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The test such patents would fail is utility, which is mostly understood to be industrial, technical or commercial utility. This is the same reason recipes are generally not patentable -- they are, after all a "process of manufacturing something" -- except when they have "utility". A common example is a recipe for cattle feed that can reduce illnesses in cows, which clearly has utility in farming.

That test is unintelligible. Anything has industrial or commercial utility if you can find someone to buy it. A recipe for chicken soup clearly has such utility for Campbells because it's how they make their product. How is that supposed to be distinguished from someone making Playdough or artificial sweeteners, which presumably are patentable if novel and non-obvious?

You just mentioned examples that are very likely patentable. The difference is, you cannot try to patent a recipe if your only "utility" is "it helps my restaurant run better" or "it can help my book sell better". The test is fuzzy, sure, but it's an important grounds for rejection since any invention must be novel, non-obvious and useful. You could try to patent recipes and novel structures, but whether the PTO or the courts will buy your claim to usefulness is another matter.

Re: Supreme Court’s new rules on abstract patents hit Apple v. Samsung

#43
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stupid the "slide to unlock" patent is. Copying it is even dumber. There are numerous equally user friendly ways to unlock a phone. What Samsung does to Android cheapens the user interface and generally makes it worse. Regardless, they should NOT be sued for it.

I don't care who's "dumber". Samsung copying the idea doesn't change the legal system for everyone else. Apple patenting and suing everyone for ridiculously obvious "ideas" does. Samsung's software designers may be cheap hacks, but they're (inadvertently) serving the same good that Newegg serves. Both are infringing patents that make the world a shittier place and refusing to settle. The only difference is that Neweg…

Not sure why I'm getting downvoted into oblivion that's the sentiment that I have as well.

Re: Supreme Court’s new rules on abstract patents hit Apple v. Samsung

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That test is unintelligible. Anything has industrial or commercial utility if you can find someone to buy it. A recipe for chicken soup clearly has such utility for Campbells because it's how they make their product. How is that supposed to be distinguished from someone making Playdough or artificial sweeteners, which presumably are patentable if novel and non-obvious?

You just mentioned examples that are very likely patentable. The difference is, you cannot try to patent a recipe if your only "utility" is "it helps my restaurant run better" or "it can help my book sell better". The test is fuzzy, sure, but it's an important grounds for rejection since any invention must be novel, non-obvious and useful . You could try to patent recipes and novel structures, but whether the PTO or…

> You just mentioned examples that are very likely patentable.

That's what I mean. How is the "recipe" for Playdough supposed to be different than a specific recipe for chicken noodle soup?

> The difference is, you cannot try to patent a recipe if your only "utility" is "it helps my restaurant run better" or "it can help my book sell better".

That's the utility of any commercial process. To make the product more desirable to customers. The utility the of process to make Playdough is that it helps you sell the product as compared with some other recipe that turns to stone on the retailer's shelf after a week.

Re: Supreme Court’s new rules on abstract patents hit Apple v. Samsung

#45
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't even need to look to that subjective standard. We grant people exclusive rights or patents for sharing novel techniques with other people skilled in the art, yet I have never seen a professional software programmer look to patents for information or algorithms. It just doesn't happen. So the tradeoff here is exclusive rights for zero public benefits. That is not the way it was intended.

I work on compilers, and while I don't read patents, I read papers which explain patented ideas. I think it is reasonable to assume that some of compiler-related papers from, say, IBM, wouldn't have been published and kept secret if IBM couldn't file patents before publishing papers. So "programmers don't read patents" does not prove "zero public benefits", because I think it is more like "programmers do read materia…

Are some of those papers also defensive publications to prevent others from patenting the ideas?
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