Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet • Hacker News Board

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#71

Post by cyanoacry » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 5:35 AM UTC

I'm extremely skeptical of this viewpoint, if only due to the fact that the energies involved in car crashes are an order of magnitude larger than those involved in bike accidents.

Intuition says that a car might be traveling (on average) double the speed of a bike--which puts us at 4x the amount of stored energy in your head which can dissipate. Unfortunately, bicycle helmets are almost definitely useless at this speed.[1]

It's also unclear if the same mechanisms for brain injury apply, though I don't have any statistics on this matter. My impression is that strict blunt force trauma is no longer the prevalent mechanism for injury in cars---you're more likely to get whiplash or some sort of quick rotation that puts you in a coma due to the brain sloshing around. Helmet or no helmet, it's difficult to protect against rotational modes.

So even if we went with this article's suggestion of wearing helmets in cars, there's a large possibility the numbers wouldn't look any better. I wear a helmet on a bike because it maximises my protection given the amount of inconvenience it gives me. Nothing about car statistics invalidates this trade.

[1] http://www.helmets.org/limits.htm

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#72

Post by knowtheory » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 5:39 AM UTC

Arelius wrote: post #64

xxgreg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read this bit: Risk of head injury per million hours travelled Cyclist - 0.41 Pedestrian - 0.80 Motor vehicle occupant - 0.46 Motorcyclist - 7.66 "but that doesn't mean your not an idiot for doing it without any good reason." So by this logic someone not wearing a helmet while in a car is also an idiot ;)

> So by this logic someone not wearing a helmet while in a car is also an idiot. That may also be true, assuming that we have similar data showing that helmets help as much in cars as they do on bikes. Considering that car incidents are vastly different however, I suspect a helmet in a car incident doesn't have quite the same affect on head injuries. And even if they have proven to be useful, the studies are almost c…

It should also be noted that cars have a number of safety devices which bicycles do not, airbags, seat belts, crumple zones, and so on.

Cars also travel under different conditions from bicycles as well (certainly not many highway bicyclists), and as such i would presume that motorists would be involved in many more high speed crashes (although data on that would be interesting to see).

So comparing injuries on bikes to injuries in cars definitely seems like an apples to oranges comparison at first blush.

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#73

Post by xxgreg » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 5:43 AM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #69

xxgreg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also cites an Australian study, which concludes risk of head injury per million hours travelled: Cyclist 0.41, Pedestrian 0.80, Motor vehicle occupant 0.46, Motorcyclist 7.66. So if you want to be consistent you should update your comment to: If you are cycling or driving wear a helmet.

Okay, how's this :P Cars have other safety equipment that make them unlike bicycles. These include airbags, seatbelts, crumple zones and the like. If you are a driving, you should employ those safety devices when you do so.

Ok that leaves pedestrians, who have twice as many head injury's per km. Most likely due to being hit by cars - perhaps cars should have airbags on the outside too...

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#74

Post by xxgreg » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 5:48 AM UTC

Arelius wrote: post #64

xxgreg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read this bit: Risk of head injury per million hours travelled Cyclist - 0.41 Pedestrian - 0.80 Motor vehicle occupant - 0.46 Motorcyclist - 7.66 "but that doesn't mean your not an idiot for doing it without any good reason." So by this logic someone not wearing a helmet while in a car is also an idiot ;)

> So by this logic someone not wearing a helmet while in a car is also an idiot. That may also be true, assuming that we have similar data showing that helmets help as much in cars as they do on bikes. Considering that car incidents are vastly different however, I suspect a helmet in a car incident doesn't have quite the same affect on head injuries. And even if they have proven to be useful, the studies are almost c…

I'd like to see strong evidence too. Where I live there have been a far larger number of pedestrians seriously injured by cars than cyclists - but you're right far more time is spent walking.

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#75

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 5:54 AM UTC

xxgreg wrote: post #58

Arelius wrote: post #56

Among others, these two points scream of grasping at anything to throw at the argument: > wearing a helmet may create a false sense of security and induce risk-taking that cyclists without head protection might not make. > Bike helmets discourage cycling We are not discussing if not wearing a helmet should be legal, A competent adult should be able to go base jumping, ride a motorcycle, or just bang their head agains…

Did you read this bit: Risk of head injury per million hours travelled Cyclist - 0.41 Pedestrian - 0.80 Motor vehicle occupant - 0.46 Motorcyclist - 7.66 "but that doesn't mean your not an idiot for doing it without any good reason." So by this logic someone not wearing a helmet while in a car is also an idiot ;)

[deleted]

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#76

Post by zurn » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 5:55 AM UTC

Arelius wrote: post #64

xxgreg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read this bit: Risk of head injury per million hours travelled Cyclist - 0.41 Pedestrian - 0.80 Motor vehicle occupant - 0.46 Motorcyclist - 7.66 "but that doesn't mean your not an idiot for doing it without any good reason." So by this logic someone not wearing a helmet while in a car is also an idiot ;)

> So by this logic someone not wearing a helmet while in a car is also an idiot. That may also be true, assuming that we have similar data showing that helmets help as much in cars as they do on bikes. Considering that car incidents are vastly different however, I suspect a helmet in a car incident doesn't have quite the same affect on head injuries. And even if they have proven to be useful, the studies are almost c…

We can see from racing sports that helmets are good to have in high speed car crashes. Rally drivers, Formula 1 drivers etc all wear them.

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#77

Post by skierscott » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 6:02 AM UTC

shanemhansen wrote: post #61

skierscott wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just 2 months ago ... she can't hold a job or go to college Oh god. How severe was it? A traumatic brain injury is something I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy (and I know how frustrating it is. I went through a severe TBI myself). And keep in mind that the healing is just beginning. Hell, at two months I was barely out of the hospital and the recovery took a full two years. I would guess she's not healing and has…

Her injuries are very similar to what you describe experiencing. Thank goodness she's 18 and healing fast. A lot of the visible damage was healed after a couple months. However despite graduating early from high school the doctors don't want her to start college yet. I think in 2 years she will be fine. She will probably be a different person unfortunately. But it could be much worse.

Then I really pity her; what I went through was incredibly frustrating. As cheesy as it sounds, my heart goes out to her.

> the doctors don't want her to start college yet.

That's completely normal in cases like this. My doctors didn't think I'd return to college for a year (and I was hardly ready at 6 months). I'm back now and at full throttle again (and going on 2.5 years). I was linear, concrete, black and white and and bad at planning for 6-9 months, and wasn't fully healed for (at least) 2 years.

> She will probably be a different person unfortunately.

A lesson I've learned is that there's nothing wrong with an injury like this changing your personality. Whether it be with fundamental personality changes or lingering deficits, it's just something you live with. How you choose to deal with them is defines who you are, not their mere presence. To this day, I'm bad at planning. To get around this, I manage it like any sane person would and nitpick every detail and put myself in the other person's shoes.

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#78

Post by Erwin » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 7:42 AM UTC

xxgreg wrote: post #73

knowtheory wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, how's this :P Cars have other safety equipment that make them unlike bicycles. These include airbags, seatbelts, crumple zones and the like. If you are a driving, you should employ those safety devices when you do so.

Ok that leaves pedestrians, who have twice as many head injury's per km. Most likely due to being hit by cars - perhaps cars should have airbags on the outside too...

Volvo does have such a pedestrian airbag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2Aw4eZoijk

Apparently that model has scored the highest Euro NCAP crash test as of 2012 (the NCAP tests tests both damage to drive AND pedestrians).

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#79

Post by savszymura » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 8:37 AM UTC

shanemhansen wrote: post #21

Since we're passing around flawed statistics, I'd like to share some anecdotes: 1. Just 2 months ago, my little sister was riding on a bike with no helmet. She was struck by a car. She flew off the bike, puncturing a lung, breaking a clavicle, several bones in her face, ribs, road rash, etc. She stopped breathing at the scene. After 1 week on the ventilator, she began breathing on her own. We knew there would likely…

>Her not wearing a helment not only derailed her life, but it caused major problems in the lives of everyone around her.

Blame the victim? How about the driver, was it not his/her fault rather than your sisters?

Re: Why it makes sense to bike without a helmet

#80

Post by savszymura » Wed, Jul 30, 2014, 8:41 AM UTC

nickhalfasleep wrote: post #7

This is like saying "If I drive a car without a seatbelt, I will drive safer!" When I ride I wear a helmet and I've broken (full failure mode absorption at impact) two in accidents; one was my fault, the other a slick spot at night that surprised me. I'll keep wearing my and put them on my kids too.

Don't forget to wear one when you're driving and walking too. And sleeping. Might save your life.

Consider purchasing a bulletproof vest too, you never know.