I think this bug should be considered completely separately from how unwise it is to use a cloud service as the sole storage of important files. Regardless of the circumstances, losing user files against the wishes of the user is the absolute worst thing a cloud backup provider can do . Even for files that are deleted intentionally and unambiguously by the user, I'm astonished that Dropbox actually deletes the files…
The 30 day deletion deadline has passed, but I have managed to restore the most recent version of your dissertation. Then you have the opposite problem; privacy-centered users complaining " Dropbox keeps your data even when they say it's permanently deleted! Here's proof!! "
How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos
51–60 of 146 posts
Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos
#52I think this bug should be considered completely separately from how unwise it is to use a cloud service as the sole storage of important files. Regardless of the circumstances, losing user files against the wishes of the user is the absolute worst thing a cloud backup provider can do . Even for files that are deleted intentionally and unambiguously by the user, I'm astonished that Dropbox actually deletes the files…
YES: from DropBox's point of view - this is a serious bug even ignoring what other actions the users have/not taken to protect their data.
And NO: this sort of thing is one of the key reasons not to use such a service as a sole backup - linking the two when trying to educate users on the importance of thinking about data safety, so we can't separate the two as one is important when hammering the other point home...
> Even for files that are deleted intentionally and unambiguously by the user, I'm astonished that Dropbox actually deletes the files at the end of the 30-day restore window. I would expect them to keep the files for some multiple of the publicly-stated restore deadline
That would cause significant consternation in some areas. If I explicitly delete a file I might explicitly want it gone within the stated window and no later and would therefore be unhappy if I found the data still available (even if I had properly encrypted it before it touched the cloud service so noone else could read it).
> For files that aren't intentionally deleted by the user but are "de-synced",
I definitely agree there - it sounds like that process needs some transactional workflow wrapped around it so that:
1. Client and server don't do anything until they've both agreed what to do (then they can both go away and do it even if the connection drops, safe in the knowledge that the action is correct).
2. The client and server record what has been agreed as part of that transaction protected process, so in the case of an unclean stop during the process it can be resumed/retried.
3. Some process may need to be in place for one side rolling back if the other detects a failure applying the agreed actions.
Of course this is a fair bit of work for something that won't happen often, particularly when you consider that there might be more than one active connection to a set of files at any given time so it might not be a simple two-way merge operation, so DB may have other priorities - but the bad PR from it happening and not being cleanly dealt with is something that they need to consider if making that sort of decision.
> "The user should have kept multiple redundant copies" is not an excuse for a poorly managed online backup service
Agreed. But "the single backup service failed" is similarly not something that is going to encourage me to have sympathy for the user!
Sync services are excellent secondary backups, and they satisfy the "off site" requirement that a great many home and small-office users neglect (I know people who worked for a small company which died because the backups were in the same building as the active data so one fire took out the lot), but no one should trust them as their only backup. I even recommend against multiple sync services as your only backups as that in itself can cause problems (when bugs or other peculiarities from one interact badly with similar behaviours in another).
Using just a sync service means you have no off-line (or even semi-offline) backup, which is as bad as not having any off-site copies.
Of course getting this involves educating users as to the risks they are taking, which is a point notoriously difficult to get across, so while I don't expect a service like DB to be perfectly bug free (and therefore wouldn't trust it as an only backup) I think such services need to help the education process by being a little less indigenous about the safety issue and making sure their users know that an accidental delete will be propagated everywhere and be unrecoverable after a time. This will never happen though: "please use some other backup option too in case ours goes wrong" is not a sentiment marketing departments or investors will want to see publicly stated!
Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos
#53> "you should backup" What about in 10, 20 years? Photo libraries will keep inflating. Local storage will not. As of now I backup from a SSD Mac. What happens when I don't have a computer anymore? Interestingly, people don't value "bits" or information. We value moments and emotions and work and art. There's no successful current consumer business model for people to store and backup photos (Backblaze is mainly prosu…
Wifi-enabled drives are already common; no computer needed. They are even targeted at mobile device users ("for iPad/iPhone").
Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Dropbox keeps deleted files and previous versions of files for 30 days. With Packrat, a free feature for all paid accounts, Dropbox keeps deleted files for the lifetime of the account. How is Dropbox not a backup provider? It may not be a very good backup provider, depending on your point of view, but it clearly markets itself as a backup provider ("your stuff is always safe in Dropbox and can be restored in a snap")…
Backups should be read only. If I can delete parts of a backup, it's just as susceptible to the same human mistakes that make them necessary in the first place.
Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
The 30 day deletion deadline has passed, but I have managed to restore the most recent version of your dissertation. Then you have the opposite problem; privacy-centered users complaining " Dropbox keeps your data even when they say it's permanently deleted! Here's proof!! "
Why would privacy centered users use Dropbox?
That is their problem rather than anyone else's of course, but that isn't what they'll shout if it bites them in the arse later - they'll concentrate on shouting about the involvement of Service X rather than pontificating on whether involving Service X for that particular data was a good idea on their part in the first place.
If they are encrypting their data client-side before the sync service touches it, then they may have thought they were safe until a key leaked and they recoded everything with new keys only to find that arched copies somewhere out there were still openable with the previous (now leaked) key(s).
Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
The 30 day deletion deadline has passed, but I have managed to restore the most recent version of your dissertation. Then you have the opposite problem; privacy-centered users complaining " Dropbox keeps your data even when they say it's permanently deleted! Here's proof!! "
Why would privacy centered users use Dropbox?
Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos
#57I think this bug should be considered completely separately from how unwise it is to use a cloud service as the sole storage of important files. Regardless of the circumstances, losing user files against the wishes of the user is the absolute worst thing a cloud backup provider can do . Even for files that are deleted intentionally and unambiguously by the user, I'm astonished that Dropbox actually deletes the files…
Edit to add: Dropbox's sole purpose is to sync files between different physical machines. Which, now that I think about it, seems sort of anachronistic.
In cloud storage, the authoritative version of the file lives in the cloud and each device just accesses it. But in Dropbox, the authoritative version is on every machine. By default, every copy is authoritative, and actions are synced.
This sort of "many originals" architecture seems to confuse people. The article author here is clearly thinking of Dropbox like cloud storage--he checked the web interface, saw his files, and thought it was all good.
But in Dropbox the web interface is not authoritative, the local copy is.
Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos
#58I use Dropbox for sharing pictures, but would never even dream to use a cloud based service for backup purposes. Granted, Jan's case is a bit more complex and I'm really sorry for his loss. Stories like that should really be a lesson to everybody never to completely trust a cloud based service as your main backup. On a side note: I agree that archiving of digital files is a hard problem. The smartest librarians of th…
Why not? I find it pretty great in terms of backups (though that's not my purpose for doing it.) I have copies of my files on my work machine, my laptop, my wife's laptop, my gaming machine, and ofcourse dropbox's servers itself. I could lose any one of those without losing the bunch thanks to dropbox synching things. Sure it doesn't help in the case of deletion but its great for the more common case of "my machine s…
If it's due to a hardware failure, sure.
If it's due to a bug as in this case, or an accidental deletion that went unnoticed for some reason, or corruption of a key file by the application that created it, or malware encrypting your entire filesystem until you pay a ransom, not so much.
Please don't consider a bunch of sync'd copies to be a complete backup solution, whether the mechanism is a RAID setup on your local machine, or an automatic sync offsite, or a Dropbox-style cloud service, or anything else. These tools are guarding against one specific and relatively common failure mode, which is useful, but they do not guard against a lot of other things that can and sometimes do go wrong.
Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
> On the other hand, keeping copies of the user's data after you say you've deleted it doesn't sound too ethical to me. I don't expect immediate purging, but I also don't expect potentially sensitive files to linger for months after they were supposed to be deleted. This is a fair concern, but I think the issue of recovering files is much more important than the issue of retention of deleted files to the huge majorit…
Also because Dropbox's EULA almost certainly has a provision that deleting files doesn't necessarily mean Dropbox erases the data right away, just that they won't make it available for recovery and it might be deleted at some future point.