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How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

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Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#41

Post by kalleboo »

rayiner wrote: post #37

The bug in question: > From all this information it seems that Dropbox client first deletes files locally before it informs the server about the new selective sync settings. Consequently, if the client crashes or is killed before the server is contacted, the files remain deleted without any trace. After the client restarts again, it only sees there are some files missing and syncs this new state with the server. It c…

> It concerns me that the top several comments are some variation of "you shouldn't trust the cloud with your data."

No, it's "you shouldn't trust one single thing with your data". Hardware fails. OSes have bugs (OS X's "space in your drive name and we delete your user folder.") Services have unexpected gotchas. This is why you never store anything in only one place.

A sync service by definition is not a separate place (unless he had found a bug in the Packrat feature)

Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#42

Post by Aardwolf »

I don't trust anything called "sync".

I trust file operations "move", "copy" and "remove".

But "sync" could mean anything: which side is syncing to which side? If something is not present on one side, will it delete it on the other?

I wish the term didn't exist, and apps/clients/... would copy or even just load or show things, and if you want to "sync", then rsync with clear source and destination. Same with mail for example: I don't want to "sync" email messages, I just want to see them, the most recent ones first.

Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#43

Post by morganvachon »

true_religion wrote: post #27
CaptainZapp wrote: post #4

I use Dropbox for sharing pictures, but would never even dream to use a cloud based service for backup purposes. Granted, Jan's case is a bit more complex and I'm really sorry for his loss. Stories like that should really be a lesson to everybody never to completely trust a cloud based service as your main backup. On a side note: I agree that archiving of digital files is a hard problem. The smartest librarians of th…

Why not? I find it pretty great in terms of backups (though that's not my purpose for doing it.) I have copies of my files on my work machine, my laptop, my wife's laptop, my gaming machine, and ofcourse dropbox's servers itself. I could lose any one of those without losing the bunch thanks to dropbox synching things. Sure it doesn't help in the case of deletion but its great for the more common case of "my machine s…

>I have copies of my files on my work machine, my laptop, my wife's laptop, my gaming machine, and ofcourse dropbox's servers itself. I could lose any one of those without losing the bunch thanks to dropbox synching things.

Read the story again. Jan had the same peace of mind you do, until a crash in the Dropbox client deleted ALL of his copies of the affected files. He only unsynced on one device, yet the Dropbox-stored copy, as well as copies he had on other devices, were gone forever, due to a client crash. Don't assume your files are safe just because they are synced to multiple devices; obviously that sync relationship can be disastrous when an unexpected bug rears its ugly head.

Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#44

Post by RoadRunner_23 »

aaronem wrote: post #7

> If you are using Dropbox as a sole backup of your files, think again. Good advice. > Without making a mistake, you might lose your files. If Dropbox, or any other single service or method, constitutes your entire backup strategy, then the mistake is already made.

I agree that single service or method should not be entire backup strategy. I backup pictures and important files to two seperate external discs, besides desktop's storage.

Sorry to hear, but sometimes it happens. Look at the positive side. you will have more precious moments to look forward to and those lost pictures, you will have to go old fashioned way of recollecting. Do you remember the day...kind.

Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#45

Post by jackweirdy »

01Michael10 wrote: post #33
gabemart wrote: post #13

I think this bug should be considered completely separately from how unwise it is to use a cloud service as the sole storage of important files. Regardless of the circumstances, losing user files against the wishes of the user is the absolute worst thing a cloud backup provider can do . Even for files that are deleted intentionally and unambiguously by the user, I'm astonished that Dropbox actually deletes the files…

"I think this bug should be considered completely separately from how unwise it is to use a cloud service as the sole storage of important files." It is unwise to use anything as the sole storage of important files. Personally, I think cloud backup is safer then one backing up files to a DVD or tape backup but I just won't keep personal files on any cloud service. Never just have one point of failure!

Totally agree with not having one point of failure. But backups should be read only as a requirement, and accessible as a feature.

Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#46

Post by fulafel »

shimshim wrote: post #29

Just curious why more people don't learn about and invest in home NAS's? Something like Synology would be pretty good at storing 8000 important photos. It is still a single point of failure, but its one I control.

It's a hassle to learn, admin, and it's more likely to eat your data. Many people do not have real internet connections at home so they could assign it an ip and access it remotely. Plus it's hard to buy a good one unless you go for generous overkill. And after 2 years you have yet another vendor abandoned Linux device with remote vulnerabilities on your home net.

(I still prefer it to cloud storage though)

Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#47

Post by rayiner »

kalleboo wrote: post #41
rayiner wrote: post #37

The bug in question: > From all this information it seems that Dropbox client first deletes files locally before it informs the server about the new selective sync settings. Consequently, if the client crashes or is killed before the server is contacted, the files remain deleted without any trace. After the client restarts again, it only sees there are some files missing and syncs this new state with the server. It c…

> It concerns me that the top several comments are some variation of "you shouldn't trust the cloud with your data." No, it's "you shouldn't trust one single thing with your data". Hardware fails. OSes have bugs (OS X's "space in your drive name and we delete your user folder.") Services have unexpected gotchas. This is why you never store anything in only one place. A sync service by definition is not a separate pla…

My point is that, for some reason, we have been conditioned to believe that bugs and data loss are just something that happen as opposed to something that service providers, who we pay money to, are charged with avoiding. We hold software to a much lower standard of quality than we hold other products and services.

Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#48

Post by XorNot »

gabemart wrote: post #34
icebraining wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect them to keep the files for some multiple of the publicly-stated restore deadline where the multiple >= 2, if for no other reason than as a goodwill generator. On the other hand, keeping copies of the user's data after you say you've deleted it doesn't sound too ethical to me. I don't expect immediate purging, but I also don't expect potentially sensitive files to linger for months after they were suppo…

> On the other hand, keeping copies of the user's data after you say you've deleted it doesn't sound too ethical to me. I don't expect immediate purging, but I also don't expect potentially sensitive files to linger for months after they were supposed to be deleted. This is a fair concern, but I think the issue of recovering files is much more important than the issue of retention of deleted files to the huge majorit…

Also because Dropbox's EULA almost certainly has a provision that deleting files doesn't necessarily mean Dropbox erases the data right away, just that they won't make it available for recovery and it might be deleted at some future point.

Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#49

Post by jackweirdy »

gabemart wrote: post #38
egypturnash wrote: post #19

Sync is not backup. Sync is not backup. Sync is not backup. My strategy: a big external drive used for Time Machine, and a subscription to Backblaze. Both of these are all about retaining multiple versions, recovering from accidental deletion, and continuously backing up in the background. Dropbox is about syncing stuff between computers.

Dropbox keeps deleted files and previous versions of files for 30 days. With Packrat, a free feature for all paid accounts, Dropbox keeps deleted files for the lifetime of the account. How is Dropbox not a backup provider? It may not be a very good backup provider, depending on your point of view, but it clearly markets itself as a backup provider ("your stuff is always safe in Dropbox and can be restored in a snap")…

Backups should be read only.

If I can delete parts of a backup, it's just as susceptible to the same human mistakes that make them necessary in the first place.

Re: How a bug in Dropbox permanently deleted my 8000 photos

#50

Post by raverbashing »

gabemart wrote: post #13

I think this bug should be considered completely separately from how unwise it is to use a cloud service as the sole storage of important files. Regardless of the circumstances, losing user files against the wishes of the user is the absolute worst thing a cloud backup provider can do . Even for files that are deleted intentionally and unambiguously by the user, I'm astonished that Dropbox actually deletes the files…

" from how unwise it is to use a cloud service as the sole storage of important files."

I disagree (a little bit)

There are some issues here:

- Using a free service

- Using a service that "thinks" when you want to add or remove stuff. Yes, it's easier to use, but it's not explicit, and it usually fails spectacularly.

- Thinking that this "magical save thing" is equivalent to a backup.

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