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Mistakes You Should Never Make

sethbannon.com

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Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#331

Post by nyc_str8tsh00t »

temp12345 wrote: post #326
nyc_str8tsh00t wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good to see YC step forward on this. I'm not a HN regular, but I've been following this thread all day because I have a friend who worked at Amicus, and several others who have worked with their software. I know there are always many sides to any story. I wasn't there, just like most of you weren't there, but all I can say is Seth's version of this story does NOT fit with what I've heard, and everything I've heard ha…

Who was the first victim? The company who received the feature they were told that they would have? Is it wrong to employ Machiavellian tactics in order to help LGBT groups further advance the rights of those oppressed?

No way to know who the first victim was, because behavior like this usually starts when people are very young. Also, you set up a HN account JUST to respond to my comment? hmmmmm... I created an account just to comment on this story, because I know people who were affected by this. Clearly you have a connection to this as well.

Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#332

Post by nyc_str8tsh00t »

jon2512chua wrote: post #308
nyc_str8tsh00t wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good to see YC step forward on this. I'm not a HN regular, but I've been following this thread all day because I have a friend who worked at Amicus, and several others who have worked with their software. I know there are always many sides to any story. I wasn't there, just like most of you weren't there, but all I can say is Seth's version of this story does NOT fit with what I've heard, and everything I've heard ha…

> Seth absolutely deserves to have a forum to tell his version of the story, but I find it more than a little annoying that after everything he's done, he's still able to leverage his position as a YC Founder to ensure that his version of the story gets more attention than anyone else's. I'm really interested to hear about the other side of the story. Any links?

The person I know who was at Amicus would definitely never go on the record about this stuff, so no, no links. All I'm saying is that I'm shocked by how many people here are willing to take this guy at his word without hearing from anyone else, given the kind of pathological lying he himself admits to in his blog post.

Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#333

Post by nyc_str8tsh00t »

lambda wrote: post #297
nyc_str8tsh00t wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good to see YC step forward on this. I'm not a HN regular, but I've been following this thread all day because I have a friend who worked at Amicus, and several others who have worked with their software. I know there are always many sides to any story. I wasn't there, just like most of you weren't there, but all I can say is Seth's version of this story does NOT fit with what I've heard, and everything I've heard ha…

I'm curious; what have you heard that makes these sound like lesser crimes? I feel like from my reading of this, it sounds like he's admitting to being pretty dishonest in a lot of ways (though obviously weasel-worded), so I'm curious what more we're not hearing about; if this is supposed to make him look better, then whatever's left must be pretty bad!

I don't want to spread rumors, and everything I've heard has been second hand at best. I just know that there were a lot of good people at Amicus, and a lot of good organizations relying on the software, and now they are all screwed.

Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#334

Post by maxbrown »

Aqueous wrote: post #301
maxbrown wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point, it can put added pressure on developers, but don't you think (in a healthy company) that "shifts responsibility for fuck-ups" is a bit overstated? Certainly transparency in sales is preferable, but is promising a (unexpectedly important to that customer) feature to close a major deal a "fuck-up"? There are some potential issues to steer clear of - team burn-out, feature bloat, etc. - but I would jus…

Yes. Absolutely. I work for a company where deadlines are continually mismanaged for features because it really isn't predictable when a feature gets done or not. And the problem is at the top - but the top doesn't ever blame themselves. And so the blame shifts backward onto the engineers who didn't make the unreasonable deadline. The worst part is that the founders are non-technical so they really have no business m…

To me this just sounds like poor company/project management and passing the buck. I guess I'm envisioning a more healthy/well-managed environment, but maybe those are in the minority.

Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#335

Post by [deleted] »

nyc_str8tsh00t wrote: post #332
jon2512chua wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seth absolutely deserves to have a forum to tell his version of the story, but I find it more than a little annoying that after everything he's done, he's still able to leverage his position as a YC Founder to ensure that his version of the story gets more attention than anyone else's. I'm really interested to hear about the other side of the story. Any links?

The person I know who was at Amicus would definitely never go on the record about this stuff, so no, no links. All I'm saying is that I'm shocked by how many people here are willing to take this guy at his word without hearing from anyone else, given the kind of pathological lying he himself admits to in his blog post.

[deleted]

Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#336

Post by spotonbuddy »

nyc_str8tsh00t wrote: post #332
jon2512chua wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seth absolutely deserves to have a forum to tell his version of the story, but I find it more than a little annoying that after everything he's done, he's still able to leverage his position as a YC Founder to ensure that his version of the story gets more attention than anyone else's. I'm really interested to hear about the other side of the story. Any links?

The person I know who was at Amicus would definitely never go on the record about this stuff, so no, no links. All I'm saying is that I'm shocked by how many people here are willing to take this guy at his word without hearing from anyone else, given the kind of pathological lying he himself admits to in his blog post.

Soon.

Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#337

Post by jasonlaramburu »

sethbannon wrote: post #278
jlevy wrote: post #250

As internal counsel for YC, it was very upsetting to learn about the ongoing troubles at Amicus. It was particularly distressing to hear about the payroll tax issues, given that YC has funded excellent companies that specialize in accounting and payroll for small businesses, such as Indinero and Zenpayroll. The tone of Seth's post suggest that YC has supported Seth in all of his recent actions. That is not true -- YC…

As tlrobinson and jacquesm noted, I certainly didn't mean to imply that YC in any way supports companies not paying payroll taxes -- as I advise in the post, companies shouldn't cut corners when it comes to that stuff.

It's ironic to me that payroll taxes (which theoretically exist for the employee's benefit) have forced a promising and growing company to lay off staff. Have you tried hiring a tax attorney to negotiate with the IRS? Often they will waive some of the penalties and allow payment plans.

Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#338

Post by [deleted] »

nyc_str8tsh00t wrote: post #331
temp12345 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who was the first victim? The company who received the feature they were told that they would have? Is it wrong to employ Machiavellian tactics in order to help LGBT groups further advance the rights of those oppressed?

No way to know who the first victim was, because behavior like this usually starts when people are very young. Also, you set up a HN account JUST to respond to my comment? hmmmmm... I created an account just to comment on this story, because I know people who were affected by this. Clearly you have a connection to this as well.

[deleted]

Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#339

Post by dragontamer »

dragontamer wrote: post #328
luma wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not being open and honest about anything here. He's a liar. He lied to his partners, he lied to his investors, he lied to his employees, he lied to his customers, he lied to the IRS, and he lied to the press. Every single item on his list here is the result of him stretching the truth and calling it "hacks". That's fun new word for "lies".

I mean, he's speaking openly about his morals here . Which is undoubtedly a good thing. Obviously, he's a liar to his business partners, his customers, and his employees. But right now, he isn't a liar to us quite yet.

And it should be noted, that based on the replies here and the feedback, it sounds like he might not be a liar anymore. Hopefully he's seeing the issues that his employees have to put up with when he puts them into this kind of situation.

So he has gained some personal growth from this event. All's well in the long run, but its difficult to make up for broken trust.

Re: Mistakes You Should Never Make

#340

Post by mikeash »

sethbannon wrote: post #198
xcubed wrote: post #158

This is just awful. There's owning up to mistakes, which is very "trendy" right now, and then there's being a straight up terrible, unethical, incompetent person. It's a bit gross to reference Ben Horowitz, to try to make this seem like a "classic" startup moment that every startup goes through. E.g., "most companies go through at least two, and sometimes over a dozen WFIOs in their lifetime." 1. "And so I learned th…

I see that you made this HN account only to comment on this post. I've learned that getting into a back-and-forth with anonymous posters on HN is never a good idea, but I'll respond just this once. 1. You're absolutely right. I majorly screwed up here. I say so as much in the post. 2. I think people can reasonably disagree here. An example: a potential customer asks a sales guy during a demo "...and will we be able t…

Your #2 astounds me. To me, that is obviously, obviously, clearcut, wrong. And the way you justify it is transparently stupid. You say that it's fine because nobody gets hurt as long as the lie can be made good. The whole problem with lying (putting aside for a moment abstract moral ideas that it's wrong in some pure sense) is that it eventually comes crashing down.

Sure, it all works out fine. Sales over-promises, engineering delivers anyway, the customer is happy. Until sales promises something that not only doesn't exist, but can't be done. Then you have a binding agreement to deliver something impossible. You get hurt because you're now revealed as untrustworthy. The customer gets hurt because their plans are built on something that isn't going to happen.

I'm especially impressed that you're unable to see the parallels with your own story. Much of your post boils down to, "don't lie (especially to yourself), because it eventually catches up to you". Yet here you are, saying that it's perfectly fine to lie as long as it doesn't catch up to you. Did you learn nothing of the commonalities that tie your individual points together?

For the record, I haven't the slightest idea who you are or what your company does or did, and am basing this comment purely on your post and this comment, just in case it sounds like I'm reacting to old wounds or anything like that.

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