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The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

blog.flytenow.com

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Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#41

Post by sokoloff »

blktiger wrote: post #7
nether wrote: post #6

This will be good for beginner pilots to make some cash. I used to attend a flight school and knew some graduates making minimum wage as entry-level flight instructors, and there are stories abound of commercial pilots not doing much better (Google "LAX ghetto"). They're basically glorified bus drivers. By cutting out all the mega airport overhead (airlines pay the airport for facilities, terminal use, baggage handli…

You can't make money this way since you can not be paid more than your pro-rata share of the flight costs. By definition that means the money you get from passengers is going to be less than what you paid to fly.

You're right that you can't make money, but you can be paid more than your pro-rata share of the flight costs.

Suppose you and 3 passengers take a flight where the direct costs total $400.

Your pro-rata share of $400 is $100. Your passengers could pay you up to $300. $300 is more than $100, so you can clearly be paid more than your pro-rate share.

The FAR says you can't pay LESS than your pro-rata share. In this case, you aren't.

Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#42

Post by rdl »

msandford wrote: post #32
rdl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much an insurance policy to cover this risk for Flytenow would cost them.

It probably can't be bought. Most insurance relies on there being some kind of probabilities associated with different outcomes, and that the insurer can sell enough policies such that they capture the law of large numbers and the idea of an expected outcome is valid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value If Flytenow wants to cover this, they're going to be self…

I guess it would be hard to underwrite something which is essentially a legal opinion, but there are underwriters who will do weird one-offs. Generally it's based on being able to reduce it to well-known probabilities, though.

Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#43

Post by jackvalentine »

dchichkov wrote: post #24
lake_rogue wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pilot, not attorney. I'll be shocked if FAA permits this -- though happy to see anything that helps make more general aviation enthusiasts. What I infer through having read various FAA letters in the past is that there needs to be a personal relationship between the parties (preferably established in-person) in a context outside of "share airplane ride". Of relevance is the FAA's 1985 Chero letter [1] about a similar…

Another pilot here. I also believe that FAA wouldn't recommend any pilot without at least a commercial pilot certificate to give rides to members of general public. Personally, I do not hold CPL. Also, for many reasons, I would not be comfortable to fly with a random person from internet. edit : On the other hand, I might consider flying with someone who had passed some mild background checks and has shared rides bef…

I'm a little confused about what threats you fear that you would not perceive in "house/business owner, graduate of ivy league, employee of a large company".

Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#44

Post by shapov »

yock wrote: post #35
noonespecial wrote: post #33

Forgetting the legality of the matter for a moment: Inexperienced pilots plus small planes plus the pressure of an implicit promise to fly at a certain time is a bad mix. CPLs get extra training and experience that GAs don't that helps them say "I know you're paying lots of money and are very important and all that but we're not flying through that". My gut instinct on services like this is that somebody is going to…

The opposite situation might even be worse. Pilot-in-command says you're go, but you're not keen on the weather. Suddenly the PIC is super pissed that you're not sharing the cost of the ride anymore, and you have a lot of very bad options. Pay for a ride you aren't going to take, get in an airplane in circumstances you feel aren't safe, or piss off this individual who's going to bad mouth you to everyone he knows. It…

Is there a baseline that could be established to dictate what bad weather is? So that the decision is taken away from both the pilot and the passenger?

Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#45

Post by yock »

shapov wrote: post #44
yock wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite situation might even be worse. Pilot-in-command says you're go, but you're not keen on the weather. Suddenly the PIC is super pissed that you're not sharing the cost of the ride anymore, and you have a lot of very bad options. Pay for a ride you aren't going to take, get in an airplane in circumstances you feel aren't safe, or piss off this individual who's going to bad mouth you to everyone he knows. It…

Is there a baseline that could be established to dictate what bad weather is? So that the decision is taken away from both the pilot and the passenger?

If this baseline were so easily quantifiable, then there would be volumes written about it and the community would have settled on one long ago. The apparent risk is different for everyone, and weather is highly unpredictable.

Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#46

Post by dchichkov »

jackvalentine wrote: post #43
dchichkov wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another pilot here. I also believe that FAA wouldn't recommend any pilot without at least a commercial pilot certificate to give rides to members of general public. Personally, I do not hold CPL. Also, for many reasons, I would not be comfortable to fly with a random person from internet. edit : On the other hand, I might consider flying with someone who had passed some mild background checks and has shared rides bef…

I'm a little confused about what threats you fear that you would not perceive in "house/business owner, graduate of ivy league, employee of a large company".

Well, we where talking about flying with a random person from internet ;) I'd think that one would want to check that someone had flown before and that this person is 'in good standing' in our society.

As to 'ivy league or big company', its an answer to the question: "will I be comfortable sharing a ride with, say, a random Stanford student or with Google/whatewher employee?". The answer is yes. Simply because I understand where these people are coming from and this is already good enough a connection.

Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#47

Post by jackvalentine »

dchichkov wrote: post #46
jackvalentine wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little confused about what threats you fear that you would not perceive in "house/business owner, graduate of ivy league, employee of a large company".

Well, we where talking about flying with a random person from internet ;) I'd think that one would want to check that someone had flown before and that this person is 'in good standing' in our society. As to 'ivy league or big company', its an answer to the question: "will I be comfortable sharing a ride with, say, a random Stanford student or with Google/whatewher employee?". The answer is yes. Simply because I unde…

I thought that might be your reasoning, but it doesn't make sense to me. There are numerous examples of criminals, murderers and other deviant classes from big companies and ivy league schools. The Unabomber for example, graduated from Harvard, posessed a PhD and taught at UC Berkley.

Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#48

Post by dchichkov »

jackvalentine wrote: post #47
dchichkov wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we where talking about flying with a random person from internet ;) I'd think that one would want to check that someone had flown before and that this person is 'in good standing' in our society. As to 'ivy league or big company', its an answer to the question: "will I be comfortable sharing a ride with, say, a random Stanford student or with Google/whatewher employee?". The answer is yes. Simply because I unde…

I thought that might be your reasoning, but it doesn't make sense to me. There are numerous examples of criminals, murderers and other deviant classes from big companies and ivy league schools. The Unabomber for example, graduated from Harvard, posessed a PhD and taught at UC Berkley.

Isn't it the same kind of reasoning that one would use when, say, hiring someone? That is, look for past credentials? And assume that past behaiviour would be a good predictor for the future?

I think the answer should be previous flight experience with commercial pilots + background check. And the reason for that is not terrorist threats, but just basic common sence. Flying is inherently dangerous, you can't just quit midflight. There've been described cases when flight instructors had to restrain inadequately behaiving flight students (scared, jamming controls, etc). And we've all been reading about cases when airliners crew had to restrain drunk/psyco passengers. This is what I'd be interested to avoid.

Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#49

Post by jackvalentine »

dchichkov wrote: post #48
jackvalentine wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that might be your reasoning, but it doesn't make sense to me. There are numerous examples of criminals, murderers and other deviant classes from big companies and ivy league schools. The Unabomber for example, graduated from Harvard, posessed a PhD and taught at UC Berkley.

Isn't it the same kind of reasoning that one would use when, say, hiring someone? That is, look for past credentials? And assume that past behaiviour would be a good predictor for the future? I think the answer should be previous flight experience with commercial pilots + background check. And the reason for that is not terrorist threats, but just basic common sence. Flying is inherently dangerous, you can't just qui…

> Isn't it the same kind of reasoning that one would use when, say, hiring someone? That is, look for past credentials? And assume that past behaiviour would be a good predictor for the future?

I guess I just don't see the connect between your criteria and behaving well on a flight. In your education/employment example I can see that connection.

Re: The Legality of Ride Sharing in Aviation

#50

Post by bake »

sokoloff wrote: post #23
bake wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if other pilots are like me, destination is often irrelevant -- I have a general intention/desire to fly (log hours, stay current, etc.), and I'll go wherever weather, time and budget permit. If I want to log two hours of cross-country flight time on a given day, which I will do regardless of having a passenger, is it against regulation to let that ride-sharing passenger pick the destination and split the bill?

Under those facts as presented, the FAA counsel has ruled that fails the common-purpose test. A different set of facts might be able to be judged as legal. You: The weather is great this Saturday for 200 miles in every direction. I'm going flying for currency purposes. Anyone want to come along? Other: I want to go to Martha's Vineyard this weekend. You: I've heard there's a great restaurant on the airport there and…

Long overdue response, but this is really helpful -- thanks for laying it out.
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