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Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

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Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what would be interesting is everything that you said with the addition of relativistic-speed travel. Take round trips near (or over, depending on your reference) the speed of light and watch how things evolve.

I downvoted you because of the unnecessary one-upsmanship and trivialization of the grandparent. You might have your own idea, but you don't need to dump on his.

I'm not sure how you read either of those (horrible!) things in my comment but since I wouldn't want to ruin the OP's day, let me try again.

Instead of:

> No, what would be interesting is everything that you said with the addition of...

How about:

> Yes, what would be interesting is everything that you said with the addition of...

I think this is officially the silliest thing I have ever felt compelled to type.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#82
post #72
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A totally different type of procedurally-generated content: The physical card game, Dominion. It is a deck-building game, where players play cards to generate cash to buy cards that go into the deck that they are playing out of (which cycles endlessly). There are 6 boring and fundamental cards that are present in every game, and 10 'kingdom' cards which do interesting and clever things. The 10 kingdom cards that are…

I wouldn't say that's procedural content, I would say that it's emergent, or even less impressively, combinatorial. I would probably call it emergent, in that the designers likely could not test the entire state space of all strategies. What's impressive, in light of that, is that the game ends up balanced, or at least not fundamentally broken. To your point though, is that the "content" (cards) introduces mechanics.…

Oh, you can definitely break the game with the wrong combination of cards in the same game. When we were starting to play, I did just that... I could essentially cycle through my entire deck on a single turn. But here you can always choose which cards to include or exclude, so the overall game is mostly not breakable unless you choose to or luck into it.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#83
I read something on Reddit the other day which goes some way towards capturing my expectation about NMS. It's not particularly succinct.

http://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/28cddf/im_worrie...

That is, procedurally-generated worlds are one thing, but an engaging environment (Minecraft) or story or purpose are other things entirely.

I have a flat game concept involving procedurally-generated concept but just can't think of what might tip it over into super-engaging territory.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#85
post #83

I read something on Reddit the other day which goes some way towards capturing my expectation about NMS. It's not particularly succinct. http://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/28cddf/im_worrie... That is, procedurally-generated worlds are one thing, but an engaging environment (Minecraft) or story or purpose are other things entirely. I have a flat game concept involving procedurally-generated concept but just c…

I think the key mechanic that makes games like Minecraft fun is simply the creative element. Once players are given the opportunity to not only experience a dynamic world, but also shape it, that's when they feel that it's truly not static. Otherwise, the "procedurally generated" aspect is just eye-candy, as the reddit post mentioned.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#86

The issue with a lot of procedurally-generated content is that overall things become same-y. Lots of breadth, little depth. When you have a set number of variable sliders, you don't have to see all the possible worlds to get a sense of how many sliders there are and what their ranges are. The problem only gets worse when moving away from planet/landscape generation (dumb matter) and getting into simulations of histor…

I've been working on combating this problem for a few years now. I'm working on a game called Spire (http://hitboxteam.tumblr.com/), which is a mix of Quake and Roguelikes. Every procedural dungeon creator I've seen so far seems to just use pre-made rooms or chunks of rooms, and shuffles them around. It never feels like you're in a new world each time, it just feels like you're in the same world jumbled up.

For the past few years, I've been working on an alternate system, which is to use a goal-oriented design based around the player experience. Each element in the world is placed purposefully, instead of randomly. I do this by emulating the traditional level design process. I think about every action and intention that goes in creating a level manually, and reduce it to rules for my system. The goal is that the end result feels crafted to guide the player through an experience, rather than to rely on the player to create a experience for themselves.

Examples of the generation behavior:

- Lights are placed in areas to guide the players attention towards the primary path, or treasures and dangers.

- Geometric features are generated based on spatial aesthetic rules (eg. a pleasing amount of symmetry and repetition), as well as gameplay rules (eg. jump distances based on player capabilities, corridor widths based on desired feeling of claustrophobia and combat difficulty).

- Unique color palette for each seed.

- Parameters of room construction have emotional analogues (high density -> claustrophobia; harsh angles -> tension; high symmetry -> order; sweeping vistas -> a moment to take a break; gradually lowering elevation -> an unsettling descent).

- The curve of emotional parameters over time have varying mathematical relationships to other parameters' curves, so every seed feels like there is a unique consistency to it.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#87
post #84

PS4 only, really? Why can't developers release cross platform games these days? Releasing it for one platform prevents a significant amount of potential users from even trying the game. I'd play it when they'll release a Linux version.

Independent developers need money to fund the development, being exclusive to a platform gives you those funds, as well as marketing and various other forms of secondary support.

The alternatives are a publisher (historical a pretty mixed bag, gaining control of your IP, changing the focus or name - see Divine Divinty) or crowd-funding (usually not enough to fund the entire project, unless you're Star Citizen :)).

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#88
post #84

PS4 only, really? Why can't developers release cross platform games these days? Releasing it for one platform prevents a significant amount of potential users from even trying the game. I'd play it when they'll release a Linux version.

Independent developers need money to fund the development, being exclusive to a platform gives you those funds, as well as marketing and various other forms of secondary support. The alternatives are a publisher (historical a pretty mixed bag, gaining control of your IP, changing the focus or name - see Divine Divinty) or crowd-funding (usually not enough to fund the entire project, unless you're Star Citizen :)).

> Independent developers need money to fund the development, being exclusive to a platform gives you those funds

How exactly? You can say that releasing for a single platform reduces costs. But how can it give you more funds? Marketing isn't really bound to limiting platforms (only expenses wise, same as development). However covering more platforms gives games more exposure, so more potential sales.

Cross platform tools are quite good these days (SDL2, etc.) so overhead of cross platform releases while still present is going down. A lot of the independent games of interest that come out these days are cross platform to my knowledge.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#89
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that's procedural content, I would say that it's emergent, or even less impressively, combinatorial. I would probably call it emergent, in that the designers likely could not test the entire state space of all strategies. What's impressive, in light of that, is that the game ends up balanced, or at least not fundamentally broken. To your point though, is that the "content" (cards) introduces mechanics.…

Dominion is balanced largely through the fact that it's symmetrical. No matter how good or bad the kingdom cards, both players are interacting with them in the same way, so, barring things like writing cards that give additional advantage to the first player, it's hard to unbalance it. If you played "a game like Dominion, except each player had their own independent set of Kingdom cards," it would be big-time not bal…

Thanks for clarifying, I've only casually played Dominion.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dwarf Fortress. Read about it. Play it. Marvel at it. http://www.bay12games.com There is nothing same-y about a game where you can't hit a bogeyman with a hammer because he's too fast, but you can kick his ass with cranberry leaves because they're lighter and let you hit faster. Or, how about the elephants roosting in trees? Or the vampirism that can take over a fortress? Of the possible were-versions of most creatur…

I love Dwarf Fortress, and there are some real treasures in the legends of many worlds. But even with all the possibilities, things still get redundant. Yes, the elephants have taken to their emergent treenests, and that's beautiful. But that's a single bug (feature) that makes us say 'wow' once, after which we've seen it. The possibilities of were-spiders and were-alpacas and reanimated spleens and rains of dwarf bl…

I think the deeper you make it, the less dull it becomes. For example, I realize all the personalities are created by a relatively repetitive grammar, but all the same I think that it adds flavor to the game with all the little quirks.

You could say the same about movies, or literature. There are many repetitive plot choices, tropes, and cliches that are repeated, but little nuances and tweaks here and there make it interesting. In the Sims, if you think about it there's very little variation in the "sliders", pick a job, have nonsensical conversations, woohoo, and then lock everyone in a room and burn them alive, but the game draws you in because there is enough detail that the human mind can draw a narrative. You've seen the landscapes in Minecraft before, but that makes it no less fun to try and dig to the bottom to find the big caves and pits.

So yes, this game will be really dull if they do sort of a breadth first procedural generation. But if they succeed in adding features that make every interaction deep, I think it could be very absorbing. Sure, maybe it's just another variation of CrocodilePerson, but this particular one has a monogomous mate and 4 children, has scars from a fight with a WereRabbit, grew up without a father and sometimes thinks about it, is well known for his tracking abilities, ect.. I think that kind of depth really adds to the experience.

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