Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms • Hacker News Board

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#11

Post by DanAndersen » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 7:39 PM UTC

The issue with a lot of procedurally-generated content is that overall things become same-y. Lots of breadth, little depth. When you have a set number of variable sliders, you don't have to see all the possible worlds to get a sense of how many sliders there are and what their ranges are. The problem only gets worse when moving away from planet/landscape generation (dumb matter) and getting into simulations of history or society.

I'd be really interested in learning about any work in the "interestingness" of procedural content. Is it possible to quantify that sort of emergent complexity that happens in life, or in a work or story with artistic direction that takes on a life of its own? Can a system make a billion compelling and unique stories without solving the issue of Strong AI and just making a superintelligent DM?

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#12

Post by gavanwoolery » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 7:43 PM UTC

DanAndersen wrote: post #11

The issue with a lot of procedurally-generated content is that overall things become same-y. Lots of breadth, little depth. When you have a set number of variable sliders, you don't have to see all the possible worlds to get a sense of how many sliders there are and what their ranges are. The problem only gets worse when moving away from planet/landscape generation (dumb matter) and getting into simulations of histor…

Even though I am an advocate of procedural generation, I concur that this is a problem with procedural generation. Even though one algorithm can create millions of permutations, they are all based on the same algorithm (for example, you can vary the size and distance of Worley noise in many ways, but in the end it looks like variations on the same type of noise). For each really new thing you want to produce, you basically have to create a new algorithm to produce it. You can often combine algorithms (say, combining simplex noise with worley noise to produce rocky terrain), but there are only so many interesting ways you can do this, and so many ways you can do it that won't break your game. You can't go wild adjusting the parameters, because 99 percent of the results will look like junk, so you often have to restrict yourself to meaningful subsets of the parameters. Really, it gets pretty close to manual generation at some point, because there is so much human input. Even if you were creating creatures, simply varying the amount of limbs would only produce so many interesting results. Then you have to code separate algorithms to generate eyes, horns, claws, skins, fur, etc -- and then make sure that every generated permutation looks ok.

Edit: to add an additional distinction, I am referring to the generation of visual content here. You can do much more in an emergent (AI-driven, state-based, or chaotic) system and produce surprising results, although you still fall into the dilemma of making sure that all resulting permutations look/function correctly.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#13

Post by protonpopsicle » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 7:51 PM UTC

None of these articles on No Man's Sky ever mention Noctis, which is really strange. That's clearly a precedent here worthy of mention. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noctis

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#14

Post by fisher-lebo » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 7:57 PM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #6

fisher-lebo wrote: post #2

I get the gist of how Minecraft is constructed: just a bunch of blocks with algorithms which hide certain blocks when they aren't in the player's view. Are there any articles about how an engine like this is built? It is an extreme level of procedural generation (apparently), but the graphics aren't blocky and as abstract, but rather pretty impressive. In a similar vein is Eskil Steenberg's Love [1], but this is on a…

I am working on a full procedural generation engine (not like minecraft, but it does use voxels at a much higher resolution). Wrote up an overview of how it works, if you are interested: http://www.voxelquest.com/news/how-does-it-work

Thank you. Your work is impressive and it is good to see someone putting forth a technical explanation like that. Much appreciated.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#15

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 7:57 PM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #6

fisher-lebo wrote: post #2

I get the gist of how Minecraft is constructed: just a bunch of blocks with algorithms which hide certain blocks when they aren't in the player's view. Are there any articles about how an engine like this is built? It is an extreme level of procedural generation (apparently), but the graphics aren't blocky and as abstract, but rather pretty impressive. In a similar vein is Eskil Steenberg's Love [1], but this is on a…

I am working on a full procedural generation engine (not like minecraft, but it does use voxels at a much higher resolution). Wrote up an overview of how it works, if you are interested: http://www.voxelquest.com/news/how-does-it-work

[deleted]

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#16

Post by gavanwoolery » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 8:00 PM UTC

fisher-lebo wrote: post #14

gavanwoolery wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am working on a full procedural generation engine (not like minecraft, but it does use voxels at a much higher resolution). Wrote up an overview of how it works, if you are interested: http://www.voxelquest.com/news/how-does-it-work

Thank you. Your work is impressive and it is good to see someone putting forth a technical explanation like that. Much appreciated.

Thanks! Any questions just let me know :)

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#17

Post by mladenkovacevic » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 8:01 PM UTC

Another space game coming out this year that will heavily use procedural generation to re-create the milky way galaxy is Elite: Dangerous. I'm in the beta and it already looks great despite many features not yet being activated for the beta players.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#18

Post by thisjepisje » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 8:02 PM UTC

Now what would be really interesting is to have some sort of rudimentary evolution in a game like this. Star systems, planet geology, flora, fauna, everything.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#19

Post by tiglionabbit » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 8:03 PM UTC

gavanwoolery wrote: post #4

Looks like it could be a good game either way, but I'm questioning their use of words when they say "every atom" is procedurally-generated, as in their first reveal trailer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6fCn8oB-sg From what they have demoed, they have not proven that anything actually is being generated. My best guess is that they randomly vary colors and textures (and generate the atmospheres, as they say), and r…

That bothered me too. They clearly aren't simulating atoms here.

Re: Exploring No Man’s Sky, A Computer Game Forged by Algorithms

#20

Post by tiglionabbit » Tue, Jul 22, 2014, 8:06 PM UTC

I'm very impressed that you can fly from the surface of one planet to another seamlessly. Sure the science of partitioning space and changing levels of detail based on distance isn't that difficult, but it is rarely implemented.