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U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

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Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#121

Post by pandaman »

bodyfour wrote: post #118
pandaman wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The audit in the first link looks like an audit of the claimed wages (on the LCA petition you submit when requesting an H1B) are same as the factual ones. I've also heard about the "ability to pay" auditing (the company has to have enough profit to support the claimed wage) and working on site (to bust body shops that sell H1Bs to another company). These are all irrelevant to companies such as Microsoft or Amazon (th…

> They are entirely orthogonal That's true in a technical sense, but they're effectively part of the same process for many, many skilled immigrants. Come in on H1B -> Start GC process -> Use ongoing GC application to get the H1B extension -> Finally get full GC. > It's a temporary visa so it has to have a term. That's answering it with a tautology. My question remains: why would we want any skilled-worker visa to be…

>but they're effectively part of the same process for many, many skilled immigrants

Sure. Does it make it okay to talk about H1B when you mean GC (or, more likely, immigration in general)? There are much more people on H1B than there are skilled immigrants. It's not designed as a vehicle for immigration any more than any other non-immigrant visa. Some people are confused with the "dual intent" but all that means is that to get the visa stamp you don't need to prove to the Department of State that you are not going to stay in the US illegally. And you can apply for AOS the same day you arrived instead of waiting for 60 days due to the 30/60 rule. It does not open you any special immigration doors.

> My question remains: why would we want any skilled-worker visa to be temporary?If they're skilled enough today, won't they be even better qualified after six years of work experience?

H-1B is not a prize for being skilled. The H-1B law was made to provide a relief to temporary workforce shortages. The limited term of its status and the limited number of visas allow Congress to reasonably control the number of temporary workers entering the country through this program.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#122

Post by Daishiman »

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #116
Daishiman wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At that level, then yes, I think we could stand to see a bit of downward pressure on salaries. Why?? If you're a lawyer specializing in sovereign debt restructuring and charge $2000 an hour, we don't hear about downward salary pressure. I've never heard anyone complaining that petroleum engineers are too expensive, even if it takes them a Master's degree and an extremely costly speciality to understand their profes…

>Why?? It hurts innovation. People that good will be locked (with golden handcuffs) into large companies that can afford them. Start-ups rarely can offer large fractions of a million dollars a year in salaries. Maybe they need to bring the entire initial development team on board as co-founders; I don't know. But right now getting good people to work with you in a start-up is harder than it ever has been before.

Sucks to be them then. If there was such a shortage we'd see more companies offering actually competitive salaries in the software industry.

Software engineers might be well paid on average but they're not better paid than many other professions requiring similar levels of training. If this is such an issue, companies should spend resources training staff for the roles they need. Like they used to.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#123

Post by krschultz »

codexon wrote: post #81
krschultz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding a bunch of smart, hardworking, educated, ambition people to society is always going to be a net-win, even if it puts a little downward pressure on wages. However, I don't equate H-1Bs with permanent immigration. There are limitations on duration of stay, what happens with your spouse/family, switching employers, etc etc. That really doesn't lend itself to people moving their whole family to the US and buying i…

> Adding a bunch of smart, hardworking, educated, ambition people to society is always going to be a net-win It is a net win for the country but not for the individuals who make up the country. You are probably able to compete with outsourcing now, but do you think this will last forever, or for your descendants? Having h-1bs, as they are implemented now, comes with more problems than benefits. It is extremely likely…

Outsourcing and immigration are two different things. H-1Bs encourage the equivalent of outsourcing, except with the people being physically located in the US. Immigration just increases the number of people.

If you are worried about competing with more citizens, then you should also be arguing to make our schools worse and make college more expensive.

I personally think what is best for society as a whole is best for me. The more economic growth there is, the more opportunity there is for me to get a raise/promotion, or find a company that really needs a person with my set of skills.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#124

Post by TheCoelacanth »

bodyfour wrote: post #107
pandaman wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious how do you know that. The H1B's wage is public record but what about your American counter-parts? The whole "H1Bs are getting the same salary" is very popular but I have not seen it supported by anything. It also seems contradictory to common sense since H1B's have the lowest bargaining power of all possible workers. How can they manage to negotiate salaries on the same level as Americans? PS. I had been…

The non-H1B salaries aren't public, but they do get audited. Employers need to be able to demonstrate that they're not paying H1Bs less, or there is hell to pay. These audits aren't rare either -- by the time you're large enough to have decent number of H1Bs they're practically routine. Large companies have a team of people just focusing on H1B compliance. As you discovered, there is a hidden wage pressure anyway. Ov…

The audits are practically meaningless. For instance, Tata[1] the second largest user of H1Bs gets away with paying programmers an average of $65k. They just classify them as "Computer Programmers" instead of "Software Engineers" which makes the prevailing wage much lower.

[1] http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Tata-Consultancy-Serv...

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#125

Post by jasonlotito »

cynicalkane wrote: post #64
jasonlotito wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you are going to rightfully be down voted for insulting the rest of us by complaining about being down voted. Your comment as it stands now, should be down voted. You aren't new to HN. You know this is wrong. Don't do it.

I've been here long enough to see this argument before, yes. I feel the same as I do now: that if it looks like people are using the downvote as an "I disagree" or "I don't like you" button, people are entitled to call this out and ask for an explanation. If no good explanation is forthcoming, this suggests the downvoters might be in error.

You didn't ask for an explanation. You complained. This is wrong.

"I find it incredible that, judging by the downovtes, people seriously think I am obligated to respond to someone who has shown so little respect to me."

This is not seeking clarification. You didn't even assume people were mistaken. You made a judgement call. You were complaining about down votes. Don't do it.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#126

Post by jahewson »

aikah wrote: post #52
jahewson wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Then there are not enough tech workers: supply and demand. > Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. Then there are not enough experts either, though you try to blame this on the companies: how cheeky of them to hire more knowledgable people!

> Then there are not enough tech workers: supply and demand. No,artificial increase of supply through government intervention to drive down wages. It's a bit like "reverse protectionism",but at the expense of local workers. But hey i'm sure if you could own slaves you'd still be bragging about "supply and demand".

I'd argue that preventing people from moving freely is an artificial limitation of supply. The US didn't get where it is in the world by putting up giant signs saying "keep out".

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#127

Post by aikah »

jahewson wrote: post #126
aikah wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there are not enough tech workers: supply and demand. No,artificial increase of supply through government intervention to drive down wages. It's a bit like "reverse protectionism",but at the expense of local workers. But hey i'm sure if you could own slaves you'd still be bragging about "supply and demand".

I'd argue that preventing people from moving freely is an artificial limitation of supply. The US didn't get where it is in the world by putting up giant signs saying "keep out".

Sure, open borders! see how it goes for you ,your family and your security.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#128

Post by codexon »

krschultz wrote: post #123
codexon wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adding a bunch of smart, hardworking, educated, ambition people to society is always going to be a net-win It is a net win for the country but not for the individuals who make up the country. You are probably able to compete with outsourcing now, but do you think this will last forever, or for your descendants? Having h-1bs, as they are implemented now, comes with more problems than benefits. It is extremely likely…

Outsourcing and immigration are two different things. H-1Bs encourage the equivalent of outsourcing, except with the people being physically located in the US. Immigration just increases the number of people. If you are worried about competing with more citizens, then you should also be arguing to make our schools worse and make college more expensive. I personally think what is best for society as a whole is best fo…

It is essentially the same thing in terms of competition for labor.

In one case you are sending the work to the workers, in the other, you are bringing the workers to the work.

Competition within the country is fair. Companies exploiting the ability to outsource/h1-b their work is not fair. Workers that were grown and educated here cannot go back in time and move to a different country with cheaper living costs and education.

If society is being replaced by people that aren't you, society can benefit while leaving you in the dust. It is not a win-win situation. It is easy to feel that you or your descendants will never be marginalized when you are making 100k+ in silicon valley.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#129

Post by jahewson »

aikah wrote: post #127
jahewson wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that preventing people from moving freely is an artificial limitation of supply. The US didn't get where it is in the world by putting up giant signs saying "keep out".

Sure, open borders! see how it goes for you ,your family and your security.

I'm an immigrant to the US :)
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