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No Russian

skibinsky.com

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Re: No Russian

#21

Post by lclarkmichalek »

acqq wrote: post #2

See however the previous extreme plane shootings, around 370 deaths total, by the US and Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 "shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988," "All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died" "The Fogarty report stated, "The data from USS Vincennes tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence infor…

This article isn't actually about the shooting down of any flights. It's about the more general way the Russian government operates. Maybe it would have been a better article had it not mentioned any flights, lest the conversation be derailed by debate over the causes & outcomes of the recent tragedy.

Re: No Russian

#22

Post by jwr »

bloat wrote: post #11

This is not a serious article. It is a rant. "The population at large is, statistically speaking, not very bright. Many are deranged from overuse of alcohol or drugs."

... and yet it is a quite accurate portrayal of the current situation in Russia. I should know - I'm Polish and my country was annexed by Russia on several occasions.

I would add that the western EU countries seem to have learned nothing from history. Trying to appease a country with ambitions to become an empire, that annexes neighboring countries -- let's see, haven't we seen that before?

Re: No Russian

#23

Post by piroflip »

baddox wrote: post #17
acqq wrote: post #2

See however the previous extreme plane shootings, around 370 deaths total, by the US and Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 "shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988," "All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died" "The Fogarty report stated, "The data from USS Vincennes tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence infor…

Most people will probably say the key difference is that the US incident was a mistaken attempt to defend an imminent attack, rather than a terrorist attack. Being perhaps more cynical, I would say the key difference is that Russia is not the biggest kid on the playground.

Summing all the evidence, I would say this was a mistake shot down too.

Re: No Russian

#24

Post by monochr »

Seems like the stereotype of the self hating Jew now has its counterpart in the self hating Russian.

While all deaths are deplorable being a world power means killing people you disagree with. And unlike the US of to a small but quickly growing extent China Russia lacks the geopolitical power to change the rules of the game.

Re: No Russian

#25

Post by Veinlash »

jakozaur wrote: post #9
iliaznk wrote: post #3

As much as most of it may be true, Russia's fault in the Malaysian plane shoot-down hasn't been proved, even the crash site hasn't been examined properly, isn't it too early for such conclusions?

It wasn't proved, but there is not a believable alternative scenario. There are videos of transported missiles, intercepted calls, orders of obstructing access to crash site... John Kerry even says there is "Enormous amount of evidence" for that scenario. Still not 100% sure, but 99% yes.

For a country to officially start condemning or placing blame on Russia there would have to be irrefutable evidence I'd say. I wouldn't want to get into a seriously heated conflict without being 100% sure, so even 99% wouldn't be good enough if I were in the driver seat. Result being people all standing around, shifty-eyed, 99% sure Russia and the separatists are behind the shooting, no one dares throw the first punch with 99% certainty.

Re: No Russian

#26

Post by kofejnik »

He's mostly right, although I'd correct a few important things:

* Putin's approval is now at 86+%, an all-time high,

* and it's universal across socio-economic classes. A lot of young bright facebook-equipped software engineers are Putin's fans.

* even a lot of first-generation Russians in US absolutely love Putin, for the sense of belonging to a great empire which he gave them (finally someone stood up to evil America!)

* because of the above, any dissenter is basically a pariah

Just keep that in mind.

Re: No Russian

#27

Post by baddox »

rdtsc wrote: post #4

> Big business is subject to federal mafia clan wars. This can be summarized with one word "corruption". Corruption that is deep, toxic, and permeates every sphere of life. From small things like getting a passport or drivers' license. What kind of grades kids will get in kindergarten, to large things like the government appropriating and stealing billion dollar companies. Corruption becomes a way of life and it spre…

> At the end of the day if someone commits murder and they are caught, you know there will probably be a good trial.

I won't claim to have done anywhere near enough research to know either way, but I have heard and read a lot of supposedly educated people say that trials now are extremely rare, primarily due to plea bargaining. I personally think that plea bargaining is a terrible idea in our current legal system.

http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2009/03/burns...

Re: No Russian

#28

Post by baddox »

piroflip wrote: post #23
baddox wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people will probably say the key difference is that the US incident was a mistaken attempt to defend an imminent attack, rather than a terrorist attack. Being perhaps more cynical, I would say the key difference is that Russia is not the biggest kid on the playground.

Summing all the evidence, I would say this was a mistake shot down too.

But presumably not a situation where the attackers mistakenly thought they were shooting down an aircraft that was about to attack them.

Re: No Russian

#30

Post by Svip »

acqq wrote: post #2

See however the previous extreme plane shootings, around 370 deaths total, by the US and Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 "shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988," "All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died" "The Fogarty report stated, "The data from USS Vincennes tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence infor…

In the case of the Siberia Airlines Flight, I do not find it unlikely that Russia pressured them to admit it was them. At the time, Ukraine was basically a Russian satellite state. The evidence is inclusive, but Ukraine just suddenly admitted it was them.
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