U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#81

Post by codexon » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:08 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #49

mavelikara wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are good reasons to believe that raising the number of H-1Bs create a downward pressure on wages. Yet, as cynicalkane mentions here, there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. The solution, IMO, is to try remove causes of wage depreciation due to H-1Bs. Right now, tying the petition (and GC) to the employer is the primary cause for t…

Adding a bunch of smart, hardworking, educated, ambition people to society is always going to be a net-win, even if it puts a little downward pressure on wages. However, I don't equate H-1Bs with permanent immigration. There are limitations on duration of stay, what happens with your spouse/family, switching employers, etc etc. That really doesn't lend itself to people moving their whole family to the US and buying i…

> Adding a bunch of smart, hardworking, educated, ambition people to society is always going to be a net-win

It is a net win for the country but not for the individuals who make up the country. You are probably able to compete with outsourcing now, but do you think this will last forever, or for your descendants?

Having h-1bs, as they are implemented now, comes with more problems than benefits.

It is extremely likely that companies such as Google still would have been created without h-1bs. See China for example. They are doing fine with Tencent, Baidu and the other host of late coming clones.

The economic dominance of the US is mostly caused by not being demolished in WW2 and many natural resources as it was only populated for a few centuries. It is not really because the US has the smartest and most hardworking people (not saying they don't help though).

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#82

Post by bsder » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:09 PM UTC

mavelikara wrote: post #35

lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

There are good reasons to believe that raising the number of H-1Bs create a downward pressure on wages. Yet, as cynicalkane mentions here, there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. The solution, IMO, is to try remove causes of wage depreciation due to H-1Bs. Right now, tying the petition (and GC) to the employer is the primary cause for t…

> there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved.

Exactly, so let them. Employer is responsible and liable for the H1-B security check, and, if it passes, in one year the H1-B converts to a green card.

Even better, the H1-B cap gets cleaned out so new people can come in every year. Good solution, no?

So, why don't we hear this? Because H1-B's aren't about filling jobs, they're about downward pressure on wages.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#83

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:15 PM UTC

krschultz wrote: post #49

mavelikara wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are good reasons to believe that raising the number of H-1Bs create a downward pressure on wages. Yet, as cynicalkane mentions here, there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. The solution, IMO, is to try remove causes of wage depreciation due to H-1Bs. Right now, tying the petition (and GC) to the employer is the primary cause for t…

Adding a bunch of smart, hardworking, educated, ambition people to society is always going to be a net-win, even if it puts a little downward pressure on wages. However, I don't equate H-1Bs with permanent immigration. There are limitations on duration of stay, what happens with your spouse/family, switching employers, etc etc. That really doesn't lend itself to people moving their whole family to the US and buying i…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#84

Post by kevinpet » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

kordless wrote: post #21

jedberg wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He is a Republican Senator from Alabama. He doesn't need to look at facts. Let's be fair here. That should read: He is a Senator. He doesn't need to look at facts.

Actually, you can look at the fact that he historically doesn't vote for education bills, so that pretty much makes him a hypocrite. Can't blame a company for trying to hire the best trained people to do a given job.

How's that? He claims that there are more than enough STEM graduates already. If he thinks that, then two consequences are: 1) why do we need more H1-Bs? and 2) why do we need to subsidize college more?

I think he's wrong, but he's entirely consistent.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#85

Post by hellgas00 » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:20 PM UTC

cynicalkane wrote: post #23

lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

As a left-libertarian it always disappoints me to see this attitude. But political opinions have always been about incentives, always about expressing your position in an in-group, and it's amusing in a depressing sort of way to see how peoples' political philosophies switch when their interests are at stake. In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened in…

If you believe that the government should be manipulating immigration rates to interfere with the costs of labor in a 'free' labor market you really shouldn't call yourself a libertarian.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#86

Post by lgleason » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:30 PM UTC

ntakasaki wrote: post #76

lgleason wrote: post #17

Raising the H1B cap has everything to do with creating downward pressure on wages. There are plenty of tech workers, but not enough cheap ones. Lots of companies also want experts in specific technologies instead of getting a good generalist who can learn quickly. If you are in tech in the US and don't mind making less money for what you do keep supporting legislation for more H1B's. Just don't complain when you beco…

>If they did then the average Wal-Mart worker would be making a lot more and have much better benefits. But tech people seem quite okay with buying things made in China, and third world countries. When was the last time someone bought a router that was 40% more expensive but made in the USA? How many of the people who upvoted your comment made it the top comment ever check for a Made in USA sticker for their clothes…

Be it right or wrong it would be nearly impossible to buy many products if you only bought ones that are made in the United States.

I don't think that many people would argue for restricting open source software.....except for some risk averse enterprise types.

"Won't artificially high salaries affect startups, where a few thousand bucks can easily kill a promising startup that needs time to grow?"

Keep in mind that this would not just affect an engineers salary with a startup, but also their equity grant which will probably equal a lower ownership in the company.

With offshoring, if it was going to actually have an effect on salaries it would, but more jobs are still kept in US and/or same time-zone.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#87

Post by joe_the_user » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:35 PM UTC

DINKDINK wrote: post #55

crdoconnor wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a left-libertarian it always disappoints me to see this attitude. But political opinions have always been about incentives, always about expressing your position in an in-group, and it's amusing in a depressing sort of way to see how peoples' political philosophies switch when their interests are at stake. In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened i…

>H1-Bs are the very antithesis of freedom Laws restrict freedom, that's their entire point. Whether a society, political ideology etc deems those limitations in freedom necessary is a different story. Visas put a wedge in the law to allow someone to work at a business. Global immigration laws prevent people/workers from moving freely to other areas of economic opportunity. By making immigration controls more restrict…

Laws restrict freedom, that's their entire point. Whether a society, political ideology etc deems those limitations in freedom necessary is a different story.

I see what you did there... which is, you jumped from the particular restrictions of the H1-B visa to the generality of "laws". The point the parent ultimately points to is that creating a situation where your visa ends when a particular company says it ends makes you beholden to that company in a fashion which would be different than if, say, you visa ended at a fixed time.

All law may to an extend restrict people's freedom of actions but a law which facilitates indentured servitude would create a situation of greater concrete unfreedom than a law restricting a person from going to some fraction of the globe.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#88

Post by winter_blue » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:36 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #78

winter_blue wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Americans expressing your sentiment have no idea how much hassle immigrants have to go through in this process or every time they cross the border. Exactly. Most Americans don't seem to know how incredibly hard it is to immigrate to this country. They think it's as easy today as it was for their ancestors who came here a hundred years or so ago. The fact is, if you are not seeking refugee or asylee status, and…

One doesn't have to be racist to see the potential hypocrisy of laying off thousands of employees while claiming to be unable to hire locally. Arguments to the contrary might be better served by discussing why those employees couldn't do what an expanded allotment of H1Bs could.

It's been pointed out in other threads that 12,000 of Microsoft's 18,000 cuts are going to be outside the U.S. (primarily former Nokia employees), and the U.S. cuts likely include H-1B workers.

If they don't, it's probably because Microsoft selected the most talented of the most talented for H-1B and EB-2/EB-3 sponsorship. Microsoft is known to concurrently apply for an EB-based green card along with an H-1B, and most employees simply remain on H-1B status while waiting for their EB-based green card (which for certain nationalities, can take a decade to procure).

On the other hard, Microsoft having to cut jobs today, doesn't mean that all its arguments in the past decade have suddenly been undermined. A sudden bout of misfortune doesn't mean that its and Bill Gates statements on the utter brokenness of the U.S. immigration system was a lie, and in bad faith. If you remember, Bill Gates first testified in Congress about the problems with U.S. immigration system back in 2007, before the recession.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#89

Post by mavelikara » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:37 PM UTC

bsder wrote: post #82

mavelikara wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are good reasons to believe that raising the number of H-1Bs create a downward pressure on wages. Yet, as cynicalkane mentions here, there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. The solution, IMO, is to try remove causes of wage depreciation due to H-1Bs. Right now, tying the petition (and GC) to the employer is the primary cause for t…

> there are good reasons to believe that letting more smart people work on tech is beneficial for almost everyone involved. Exactly, so let them. Employer is responsible and liable for the H1-B security check, and, if it passes, in one year the H1-B converts to a green card. Even better, the H1-B cap gets cleaned out so new people can come in every year. Good solution, no? So, why don't we hear this? Because H1-B's a…

> So, why don't we hear this? Because H1-B's aren't about filling jobs, they're about downward pressure on wages.

Instead of posing a question, answering it yourself, and then attacking the answer I am proposing to do something which I think will lead to better results for almost everyone involved.

When some corporation proposes increasing the H-1B quota, tell them that you agree with them but ask them to include the stipulations your outlined above.

Re: U.S. Senator blasts Microsoft's H-1B push as it lays off 18,000 workers

#90

Post by lgleason » Sat, Jul 19, 2014, 7:37 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #38

cynicalkane wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a left-libertarian it always disappoints me to see this attitude. But political opinions have always been about incentives, always about expressing your position in an in-group, and it's amusing in a depressing sort of way to see how peoples' political philosophies switch when their interests are at stake. In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened in…

>As a left-libertarian it always disappoints me to see this attitude. But political opinions have always been about incentives, always about expressing your position in an in-group, and it's amusing in a depressing sort of way to see how peoples' political philosophies switch when their interests are at stake. In particular, it seems to be common among hackers to be very libertarian except when they feel threatened i…

Very true.

The majority of H1B workers I have come across in my own career were paid less than the Americans, or were working in a business that was notorious for being either a bad place to work and/or not one that paid well. Yes there are exceptions, and yes this is anecdotal, but I have yet to see solid data to refute this observation.