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The Middle East Friendship Chart

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Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#41
post #23
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheists often bring up religion as a source of conflict, and there is some truth to this. But it isn't the whole picture. Religion is often just another expression of cultural differences, which along with conflicts for resources is the biggest driver for conflict. Religion is just part of the package. A non-religious example which often shows up among atheists is feminism, which is really just an expression for dif…

> If cultures interact a lot, they often end up with the same religion anyway. This is what people always seem to forget. "Diversity" within a culture does not bring diversity, ironically, but merely causes one side to be assimilated into the other, losing it's distinct identity.

Not necessarily. India for example was ruled primarily by Muslim rulers for over a thousand years but still ended up with a huge Hindu population and a significant Muslim population. If you consider the whole of South Asia, that "Diversity" in religion is even more stark. Since this region has almost 2 Billion people living, it can't be considered as different.

At the same time, you do have a good point. When you consider colonialism, what it represented was non-assimilation. One criticism of British Colonialism in India has been that unlike other Invasions (Greeks, Persians, Central Asian etc..), the British never did assimilate into India. The Mughals for example were conquerers from Central Asia (descendants from Mongols), but dropped their ties and forged new ones in India. That never happened in Colonialism not just by the British but every Colonial power. So, in that sense you are right about assimilation but its a bit more complex than that.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#42
post #31

Could someone explain the first couple of principal components of this conflict to a historically illiterate like me?

It all comes down to 'Whose land is it anyway?'

Some of the issues go back thousands of years. In a sense, it also shows the genius of Prophet Mohammad. From a historical point of view, one of his greatest achievements was to unite the Arabs. That's something that was never done before or since. So, simplifying it as just a land dispute isn't right.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#43
This chart is at the very least incomplete and inaccurate if not blatantly false. To accuse Iran of cooperating with Al Qaeda while claiming that Saudi Arabia does not is audacious. Saudi Arabia spreads the most violent branch of Islam (Wahhabism/Salafism) through indoctrination as well as direct funding for terrorism. Just look at the perpetrators of 9/11, all of whom were Sunni Arabs, most of them from Saudi Arabia. The same goes for Qatar, which is missing in the chart. Hamas and Iran broke up because the former (Sunni) joined the fight against the Syria government, which is supported by Iran. Iran is neither Sunni nor Arab, groups like Al Qaeda and ISIS would love to commit genocide against Iranians. They don't have any real allies and have propped up a few Shia proxies in Iraq and the Levant. Others are missing, like the Kurds, so is the the link to Central/South Asia as well, i.e. AfPak. Without Pakistan Al Qaeda and the Taliban could have not existed. It should be noted that the Pakistani government and military are bought and paid for by the Arab states in the Persian Gulf, where Pakistani mercenaries protect the Monarchs from their civilian population, Bahrain being a notable example: the majority of Bahrainis are Shia and they are naturally friendly with Iran/Iraq. Their government, however, is run by the same kind of Sunnis that control countries like Kuwait and the UAE.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#44
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different religions. Turkey is "sunni"/secular. Iran is Shi'a/secular. (but the other way round, Turkey's population is "moderately" sunni muslim, the state is aggresively secular. Iran, the population, I think is fair to say, is secular, the state is aggresively Shi'a muslim). The sunnis are the ones that are organising things like ISIS, and the religious cleansings ISIS is doing. Problem is that one of the values o…

Iran is Shi'a/secular Islamic Republic of Iran is a theocracy.

Bush was republican, doesn't mean all Americans were right-wing.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#47
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is Shi'a/secular Islamic Republic of Iran is a theocracy.

Bush was republican, doesn't mean all Americans were right-wing.

Exactly the distinction I wanted to make. Iran is a theocracy, with a population that has at least a significant secular fraction.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#48
post #15

I suspect there could be some more insightful ordering of the entities to make the situation slightly less clusterfuck-like. edit: http://i.imgur.com/PgXt8Md.png is bit better, there arises two kinda clear clusters of friends.

Your chart could be summarized as Sunni versus Shi'a, and muslims versus the world, with the religious cleansing in Sunni-Shi'a warfare taking priority.

Which is kind of accurate.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#49
post #28
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey is probably about as strong an opponent of ISIS as there is in the middle east. Edit: the parent comment was edited while I was writing that. There is a lot I disagree with now, bit the biggest factual problem is the idea that Lebanon "won't blow up like Iraq" seems to ignore 2 decades of civil war in Lebanon.

Not really. Let's say that Erdogan and ISIS agree on goals, absolutely not on means, and Erdogan stands to lose a LOT if ISIS doesn't back down. They are not enemies, even if you have a point that they're absolutely not friends either. You're right of course that Lebanon hasn't been very stable.

You think Erdogan wants an Wahhabist caliphate centered in Bagdad that claims parts of Turkey? Not likely!

I'm trying to imagine what goals they share?

I guess Turkey probably doesn't want an Iranian-dominated Iraq (and nor does ISIS of course!), but Turkey can probably accept that to some degree provided Iraqi Kurdistan remains autonomous and provides a buffer zone. Beyond that I can't see anything they really have in common.

Re: The Middle East Friendship Chart

#50
post #31

Could someone explain the first couple of principal components of this conflict to a historically illiterate like me?

Israel, Oil, Shia vs Sunni conflict, US ambitions, old school dictators vs democratic movements vs religious fundamentalists.

I think that covers most things, except Turkey. Turkey has a whole secular vs religious plus embrace Europe and the West vs embrace the Middle East thing going on.

Basically a short summary is difficult because the history is enormous and intertwined.

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