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The Benefits of Failing at French

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Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poetic! I'm an Australian whose wife is Chinese, we just had our first child, who is German, in Thailand and are thinking to move - after 8+ years in China - to France. Neither of us speak French, but we sometimes translate classical Chinese together. You only get out of languages what you put in to them. Speaking of which, there's a great Arabic calligraphy torrent around at the moment... PS. Pashto's pretty close t…

Sorry but could you clarify? How is the child of an Australian and Chinese couple German?

I have three nationalities. Under German law, children of Germans are considered German no matter where they are born.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#92
post #62

This is timely. I'm about 4 weeks into a "let's learn Korean" self-study program. The last time I seriously tried to learn a foreign language was Spanish in high school and it was quite a debacle. But after many years married to a Korean woman, I finally decided I was embarrassed enough not knowing more than a few utility words in Korean to take the plunge. I remember looking into learning Korean about 6 or 7 years a…

Out of curiosity, what are the texts/resources you're getting vocab from? Where do you get shows to watch? Did you pick up on the basics like the alphabet and pronunciation first and study that together? My husband's just like you and beyond knowing words for his favorite foods and some of the lyrics to Gangnam Style, he doesn't know much more. I would like to change that. Plus it'd be nice to practice my rusting Kor…

I learned Hangul years ago from some website. It's impressively easy to learn and makes figuring out pronunciation way easier than writing Korean in a Latin alphabet.

There's actually a great list of resources here.

http://www.reddit.com/r/korean

and more specifically here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/rq3th/the_ultimate_b...

Right now I'm using Ankidroid and Anki for Windows and OS X (all free and they sync with Ankiweb, Anki for iOS is some small fee) for vocabulary. There's tons of "decks" (all free) available through Anki. I'm currently grinding through the "Korean 1000 most common words" deck since it also has a vocal pronunciation for each word for me to practice against.

You have to be a little disciplined with it: for each card, listen, practice the pronunciation and then when you flip the card the for the meaning score your result honestly for the SRS system to work right. You only ever get 20 new words a day, but it adds up really fast.

Right now I do a morning session (or I break it up into two 15 minute sessions), and then in the afternoons I use Ankidroid to generate a list of words I keep forgetting to practice against. I do this every day.

I'm using this textbook at the moment. http://artsonline.monash.edu.au/korean/my-korean-1/

It's free, and I just upload it to my google play books account and read it on my tablet. I'm also entering every sentence and vocabulary word from this book into a new Anki deck so I can practice more as well as get some time learning how to type in Korean.

I don't have a Korean keyboard, so I took a screen shot of this one (http://www.branah.com/korean) and printed it out and just stick it on top of my cheapo $5 Logitech keyboard to help me. It's slow, but I'm getting steadily faster.

About once a week, I'll do an extended study session and sit down for a few hours and try to write all of the vocabulary I'm learning and what it means. This is giving me practice actually writing Hangul, which will help me later in reading people's messy handwriting. I'll probably start doing this as well to improve my handwriting since figuring out how to fit different syllables in a square is still a challenge for me. http://koreanvitamin.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/how-to-practic...

I've tried and struggled a lot with memorizing vocabulary in the past which is why I've put it off for so many years, so I can't say enough good things about Anki. If I have a criticism, it's that I'm much better now at remembering Korean->English than I am going from English->Korean. There's some decks that cover that as well though, and I'm planning on making a "1000 most common words in English to Korean" deck at some point when my Korean and typing gets better.

There's also a deck of every TOPIK vocabulary word I'm planning on moving to next. It's almost 8,000 words.

For videos, I'm not as much into those yet. But I'm planning on moving to start that in a few months to build listening comprehension. My goal is not academic/formal Korean, but more conversational/colloquial. So I'm thinking of shows like Running Man on www.dramafever.com might be good to watch, at least if you get tired studying you can be entertained.

There's also quite a few youtube channels at various levels of complexity. The people who make the videos usually put quite a bit of effort into them to make them at least entertaining.

In my queue for future studying:

https://www.youtube.com/user/talktomeinkorean

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg-p3lQIqmhh7gHpyaOmOiQ (he puts subtitles everywhere in Korean and English so it's super helpful to pause on each sentence and work them out)

https://www.youtube.com/user/sweetandtasty/videos - mostly English, but she provides lots of entertaining background stuff and nouns for things

- Based on my readings from other people and what to expect, I'm expecting to get up to very basic conversational level in 6-9 months and be able to handle most typical daily conversational needs somewhere between 1-2 years of study. Korean is a very hard language for English speakers to learn (as I'm finding out).

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#93
Spanish native speaker here. I'm still waiting for my ah-ha moment (I'm learning Japanese for the past 4 months at a rate of 4 hours per week), I do hope it arrives. It took me probably 5 years to be fluent in English, and probably 4 more to actually be good enough as to read/write government proposals, abstracts/CFP, and finally co-authoring a published book "Java 7 Recipes"; my accent still lingers (javapubhouse.com if you want to hear it), the Ys, Js all come out with the same sound for me. I did learn French for 5 years, but lost most of it due to not practicing it. Learning French coming from Spanish felt a little weird because there are gender swaps (for the inanimate objects) that do trip you up. Did try to learn German for 5 months just after finishing French, so I ended up sounding like a French speaking German, which my teacher hated (and whom scared me away from the language!)

I noticed that I'm not really going anywhere fast with my Japanese and I think I might be doing it wrong (listen to one hour podcast while running / biking). Some stuff sticks but in general it does seem that my progress is nowhere near what I had when learning the other languages in a more structured format.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#94
post #93

Spanish native speaker here. I'm still waiting for my ah-ha moment (I'm learning Japanese for the past 4 months at a rate of 4 hours per week), I do hope it arrives. It took me probably 5 years to be fluent in English, and probably 4 more to actually be good enough as to read/write government proposals, abstracts/CFP, and finally co-authoring a published book "Java 7 Recipes"; my accent still lingers (javapubhouse.co…

Going off-topic a bit, I highly recommend you peruse the forum over at the Reviewing the Kanji site (koohii.com). Even if you have no interest in the book the site is based around (Heisig's Remembering the Kanji) there are troves of great advice and methods for Japanese self-study to be found there.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#95
post #94
post #93

Spanish native speaker here. I'm still waiting for my ah-ha moment (I'm learning Japanese for the past 4 months at a rate of 4 hours per week), I do hope it arrives. It took me probably 5 years to be fluent in English, and probably 4 more to actually be good enough as to read/write government proposals, abstracts/CFP, and finally co-authoring a published book "Java 7 Recipes"; my accent still lingers (javapubhouse.co…

Going off-topic a bit, I highly recommend you peruse the forum over at the Reviewing the Kanji site (koohii.com). Even if you have no interest in the book the site is based around (Heisig's Remembering the Kanji) there are troves of great advice and methods for Japanese self-study to be found there.

Neat, will check it out. Yeah, Kanji might be a tall order right now (still working with Hiragana/Katakana first), but found the forums. Kinda nice to find a community of Japanese learners

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#96
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that 80% of people in Montreal use English as their primary language.

Maybe that was true in 1965, but it's nowhere near the case today. Historically the downtown business core of Montréal was Anglophone while the poorer, rural areas were completely Francophone. However, rural people could still vote: the result was the 1976 provincial victory for the Parti Québécois who immediately introduced far-reaching legislation requiring the use of French in public places, in the workplace, etc.…

Thanks for the correction! I wasn't aware it had changed that much.

I am well aware of the treatment you get as an English speaker in Quebec. If they think you're non-Canadian, they are super friendly. If they think you're Anglophone Canadian, watch out!

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#97
post #64
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm french and I agree,the language is bloated and too complicated. English might be difficult for a french native that didnt learn it at young age like me but it's much more simple than french. I wonder though why french is that complicated,in some other countries you have the official language and dialects,but often the core of the official language is tiny,so if one sticks to that core one will write correct sente…

Well, having the Académie française doesn't help the language evolve much! Language should change over time, take on loanwords, simplify grammatical structures, etc. When they don't, they tend to get passed by by more dynamic languages. One thing we're definitely learning is that adding lots of loanwords to a language does not mean that the language is becoming the same as the source of the loanwords. It's just becom…

Bof, French does change, all of the time, and the Académie française only codifies and regularises these changes 30 years later -- it is irrelevant to the development of the language. What is different is that 'loanwords' are frenchified almost immediately, my favourite example being the regular -er verb 'liker', to like on Facebook, je like, tu likes, il like, nous likons, ...

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#98
The best thing about speaking bad French is that it makes French people speak English to you. Possibly because they don't want to hear their beloved language mangled, but I don't really know. All I know is that they kindly switched once they heard me speaking. :)

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#99
post #70

I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn. Ridiculous amounts of exceptions to every single rule, dozens of tenses (which no one ever uses), lack of general structure, arbitrary genders, it's got it all. My personal piece of advice to anyone: don't waste your time learning French, it's a dying language. Go for Spanish if you need a latin language, it's at least used in Spain, the United…

This is such a sad thing to think about. Truthfully almost all languages outside of English, Mandarin, and Spanish will eventually die out. But for me learning a second language has never been about practicality, if it was I already needn't bother knowing anything but English. I've been studying Japanese for 12 years now just for the way I can think about things completely differently, and for the way it sounds. I st…

On the flip side, it's important to consider that different languages are arguably the largest barrier to anyone looking to experience another culture. While different languages have the novelty factor it also prevents you from fully being able to engage individuals in conversation and really get to know them.

This isn't an issue if you're only encountering two or maybe even 3 languages, but when you truly take a global perspective you're looking at French, English, Mandarin, Swahili, Japanese, Hindi, Arabic, German, Portugese, Spanish, and Russian. And that's only the big ones I know off the top of my head!

Learning new languages is great and I have no desire to see them completely forgotten, but I think when push comes to shove having one global language is absolutely preferable to the current mess we have.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#100
Great article. Tired of learning stupid front-end JS frameworks and would love to hear your guys' story about failures at other hobbies and not just foreign languages and what insights you gained from it.

Me personally, I took up basketball and thought that I could be like LeBron dunking on everybody, then I realized that I was short and Asian and have no leaping ability; then I shifted my goal a little bit to aim to be like Allen Iverson to try to cross and drive, then I realized that I wasn't fast nor agile and had no crafty finishing moves around the rim, so I settled on being Jason Kidd before he could shoot, a point guard who passes the ball but I enjoy throwing my teammates good passes at the right time for the bucket so they can finish.

I took up guitar and thought I could be like Jimmi Hendrix, soloing and have women throw panties at me up on stage. Then I realized that I had little finger strength nor dexterity to play sixteenth-notes, bends, and vibratos. So I settled on just trying to mime the part and playing with emotions like when you're doing a bend or a vibrato, contorting your face with wistful wrinkles and tilting your head rhythmically like Santana would behind his sunglasses. But I enjoy playing music esp. when it's heavily distorted so that no one can hear properly the poor tone and timing of my playing.

Finally I also took up daytrading and thought I could be like George Soros and play a game of chicken with the British treasury and make a killin'! Then I realized that I had little to no understanding of the dynamics of the option pricing model and had no discipline except that I was overwhelmed with greed and ego when the market is riding high and conversely with fear like a chicken when the market goes against me. So I settled on keeping trading and accepting to give my broker and hedge funds my money, but trying to preserve my capital for as much as possible and taking small losses - so I can extend giving of my money to Wall Street for as long as possible.

Would love to hear what you guys' failures and success stories at learning a different craft and your insights gained.

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