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Programming is not math

sarahmei.com

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Re: Programming is not math

#71

Post by rayiner »

magice wrote: post #59

I think the fundamental problem is this: programming is not computer science. Think physics vs mechanics, or biology vs medicine, or theory vs practice. Nobody will expect a physicist to fix their cars, or a biologist to cure their sickness. Nobody studies physics to work as a mechanics. On the other hand, computer science, being young as it is, is still confused with with its instruments (computer) and application s…

> Think physics vs mechanics, or biology vs medicine, or theory vs practice. Nobody will expect a physicist to fix their cars, or a biologist to cure their sickness. Nobody studies physics to work as a mechanics.

Now, but you can't get into medical school without taking organic chemistry, etc, and you generally can't practice as a mechanical engineer without taking several courses in physics, structural mechanics, and a math sequence up through differential equations.

Re: Programming is not math

#72

Post by mamcx »

thanatropism wrote: post #3

Again this? It's been run up and down on Twitter. Effectively: a maths education is a great IQ test. If I was hiring a press agent, I'd still ask math questions. E: "I think this is great. I was always interested in computers as a kid but was awful in math." When I was a kid I was intermittently good and bad at maths, and hit a low point in high school trigonometry. Different teachers, different styles. I still "grew…

> We don't tell people they can be bad at talking.

Of curse, we do. People is terrible at talking in public, for example. And a lot of people have serious issues talking with others (like the opposite sex).

In fact, problems in human communication are far more serious and widespread than problems in math. The problem in how teach and learn math is a subset of it: If we have problems with math, is the failure in how the subject is talked among us.

Re: Programming is not math

#73

Post by pcote »

Imperative programming probably isn't math. Math describes things and their relationships. It doesn't tell other parties what to do.

That being said, imperative language has certain limits. When one party gives orders to one or more other people, then human language does the job fine. But when it's multiple people telling each other what to do, that's when human speech ranges from unpleasant to downright undecipherable.

So you get the same thing with imperatively coded programming processes that need to act concurrently in the same area. Confusion and fighting over resources is just the natural result.

Re: Programming is not math

#74

Post by tel »

jordigh wrote: post #64
tel wrote: post #4

> Programming is Language. And half of mathematics is more or less the study of formal languages and their consequences? You can say that they're different in order to keep people who are scared of math from projecting those feelings to programming. Or you can say they're the same to draw deep insight between programming and one of the oldest fields of study of human kind. I find that people tend to reject the relati…

> And half of mathematics is more or less the study of formal languages and their consequences? No, just a small fraction is: http://www.ams.org/mathscinet/msc/msc2010.html?t=&s=68Q45++F... This is but a branch of a branch (computer science): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_Subject_Classifica...

That's a really restrictive and explicit demarcation of "formal language". I'd happily describe logic as formal language and then go hunting for places which seem to have non-trivial interactions with logic.

Re: Programming is not math

#75

Post by pfitzsimmons »

tehmaco wrote: post #38
pfitzsimmons wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math, English, Python, Chinese, Ruby - these are all just languages. Programming languages and Math are simply languages designed to be good at describing phenomena that can be defined with precision. Programming languages are optimized for describing precise sequences and procedures, while the language of Math is optimized for describing precise proofs. You could actually write pretty much anything that is written i…

Precise English is "Legalese" - lots of definitions, qualifiers, and words having precise technical meanings.

It is more precise than normal English dialect, but still much less precise than math or python. At root, the phenomena that legalese describes are often imprecise. For instance, there is no perfectly precise way to describe the boundaries of a non-compete agreement, or what exactly constitutes "negligence." (This is why we cannot actually replace law with code)

Re: Programming is not math

#76

Post by vonmoltke »

bokonist wrote: post #52
pjc50 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is very little a third party can do to expedite the process So why is college so damn expensive? Why does formal education exist at all? Just because the study of education hasn't been very rigorous and is widely ignored doesn't mean that there aren't better methods to find.

So why is college so damn expensive? In the modern economy, you need access to a high-paying career path in order to have economic security ( http://intellectual-detox.com/2013/01/20/economic-classes/ ). College provides the social network, acculturation, and signaling that make it much more likely to gain access to such career paths. A good college is a college that has the best reputation and attracts the smartest…

> Currently, it exists because the formal education system teaches everyone that the formal education system is very important, that economic growth and our national competitiveness depend on more and more people going to college. People believe this myth, and then vote for politicians who sustain the institutions.

It also exists because the gatekeepers for many professions require it. In many cases, they require multiple levels of it.

This problem keeps getting worse, too. For instance, NCEES guidelines require an accredited engineering Bachelors degree for a PE; they want to add mandatory post-Bachelors education to the licensure requirement because they feel engineering Bachelors degrees are too short.

Re: Programming is not math

#77

Post by jamesbritt »

padobson wrote: post #55

I'm a developer. I got a 1290 on my SATs in high school. 670 verbal and 620 math. I think a good balance makes a good developer. Even more than that, it makes a good software creator - designer, developer, project manager, etc.

My SAT scores were similar; maybe lower math and higher verbal.

I was always much better at writing than I was at math, and in retrospect I think being able to write well can help one program better.

If people are thought to plan how to express their thoughts, organize them in a cogent manner, remove redundant phrases, tighten up wordy expressions, they are picking up skills that can be transferred to programming.

Plus, being able to express yourself well at work is like a super power.

Not that I think programming is more a language skill than a math skill, just that abstract organizational skills are applicable to both writing and coding. I suspect that getting better at writing software might make one a better essay writer, or at least a more organized writer.

Re: Programming is not math

#78

Post by ivanmaeder »

untitaker_ wrote: post #14

This has been posted before https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8038631 Except that this time ``#comments`` has been added to the URL to circumvent the system HN has in place to prevent reposts like this.

My mistake. I didn't mean for the #comments bit. I was wondering why nobody had posted it before.

Re: Programming is not math

#79

Post by ivansavz »

In the language of apt-get, the OP is saying that MATH is not Required for being a coder, but a Suggested package... which is true enough.

When learning to code through, it helps to have experience with functions and math procedures, even if it is only for the sake of analogies...

Re: Programming is not math

#80

Post by mamcx »

tlarkworthy wrote: post #62

There is research in this area: "Contributing to success in an introductory computer science course: a study of twelve factors" : http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=364581 (note math background is positively correlated with success, language skills were not considered) "Language Factors in Mathematics Teaching and Learning" http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-009-1465-0_2... "The effect of student attribut…

Naive question: "language skills were not considered".. this mean them not think in include it, or that it test for it but not see a correlation?

"Research into Comp Sci has been going on decades becuase apparently its one of the hardest classes to teach effectively"

This apply to math, rigth? So, if (as I experienced) programming in university is teach as math, and get the same bad results, them the solution is double-down in be more math-y?

I learn programming in a tech school. Far more effective. In my experience with interview more than +100 developers, the people that go to university (and be their introductory at programing) do worse at programming than the people that don't.

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