Programming is not math
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Re: Programming is not math
#12Couldn't it be said that math itself just another language used to describe deeper processes?
Re: Programming is not math
#13In academic research, nobody cares about education. The big universities that you think of as education powerhouses like Stanford, MIT, CMU, are all at heart research universities. Their faculty were not hired because of their skill as educators, but as scientists. In the training of research faculty (starting in undergrad through grad school and their postdocs) there is very little emphasis or formal mentoring or training on teaching students. Sure, you might TA a class, but this is usually seen as an inconvenience to be discharged as quickly and efficiently as possible, and some programs allow students to get their PhD without ever TAing a single class.
Why do they not care though? Well, educating undergrads won't get you tenure or grant money or publications. These are all the yardsticks that we use to measure faculty success. Wait, don't we use student evaluations? Oh sure, but you know what gets good student evaluations? Giving everyone good grades.
In a larger sense though, most don't care about the study of education. Education research is de-prioritized and de-funded and education researchers and grad students are mocked for lacking intellectual rigor. Undergraduate education majors are not helping - walk past an undergrad education classroom and you could find college students creating paper mache volcanoes. No joke. Some of this is because education research is really hard, both scientifically and politically.
Politically, education research is undermined by everyone. If you are a researcher and you want to study how K-12 education works, for example, you obviously need the permissions of administrators and teachers at a school. Trying to get this permission will set off a powder keg. The administrators might be supportive, or they might think that your findings will be used by NCLB to justify shutting their school down. Teachers won't be supportive at all, they will see your research as an attempt to gather data about their job performance, this will play into the hyper-adversarial relationship between administration and the teachers union, and you will never see the inside of a high school as an education researcher except on PTA nights. I'm pretty sure that nationally this research is not funded as robustly as say efforts to make robots fight with giant lasers because policy people don't really want to know when their efforts are not working and the thought of independent and critical scientists studying the education system terrifies them.
So, as a young researcher, when you sit down with your adviser and say "but nobody knows how our students learn programming", they will forcefully explain the way the world works to you, and "suggest" that you abandon this line of inquiry for something "safer", something more funded, like perhaps an algorithm to detect cats in photographs on the internet. You can publish on that. It will help your career. Educating undergraduates doesn't help anyone's career.
Re: Programming is not math
#14Except that this time ``#comments`` has been added to the URL to circumvent the system HN has in place to prevent reposts like this.
Re: Programming is not math
#15Again this? It's been run up and down on Twitter. Effectively: a maths education is a great IQ test. If I was hiring a press agent, I'd still ask math questions. E: "I think this is great. I was always interested in computers as a kid but was awful in math." When I was a kid I was intermittently good and bad at maths, and hit a low point in high school trigonometry. Different teachers, different styles. I still "grew…
The brain evolved to communicate effectively with others. It did not evolve to manipulate symbols in a logical way. We can do it (some of us rather well) since the brain is still quite flexible. But it may account for the difference.
Re: Programming is not math
#16Couldn't it be said that math itself just another language used to describe deeper processes?
Programming is not math, but it is logic, and math is almost always a purer and more demanding expression of logic than language.
Logic is important because programs always have to "resolve" into something specific in order to compile and have a result.
Most usage of language is devoid of structured logic, or "fuzzy" logic, and is poor training.
Just writing and reading this post is an example. I'm trying to be logical, but logic and persuasion in language is a different ball game - the reader is the "compiler" and as we know, they all work differently. :)
So, if you aren't comfortable with math or engineering on at least some level, you're going to be operating at a disadvantage as a programmer IMHO.
Doesn't mean you can't do be a programmer "at all", but the most demanding environments will continue to require it.
Re: Programming is not math
#17Couldn't it be said that math itself just another language used to describe deeper processes?
If the author had taken the time to make this understanding as well she would have realized people that are "good" at math get programming just as well as people that are good at Japanese/French/whatever is because they are both languages.
Re: Programming is not math
#18My main hobby is learning foreign languages and I have noticed that a very large proportion of people on language-learning sites happen to be programmers of one sort or another. Of course, this may just reflect a tendency of programmers to be aware of and use the technology available to pursue their other interests, and thus be overrepresented on such sites, rather than an affinity between interest and ability in com…
Also: a mason and a blacksmith, both traditional crafts I admire, learn their tools once; programming is an activity where you have to continually change and relearn tools. This selects for people with an affinity with novelty. You'll probably see more programmers than the base rate when, say, a Nepalese restaurant opens in town.
I think programmers are still from a set of generation cohorts where being into computers from a young age was still a "thing", something that wasn't the default. I'm in my early 30s, and I had the first PC of anyone I knew in an upper middle-class residential compound of five thousand. Nowadays, it's more or less the default that everyone will grow up with computers (tablet computers y compris).
Of course, my first PC booted into BASICA. But still, it's hard to know what programmers born in the 90s, entering the workforce... right now... have as formative computer experiences -- and what the first tablet generation of programmers will think like.
Re: Programming is not math
#19as an aside it's kind of interesting why there isn't as much research on teaching programming as their is say on refinement types, separation logic or pointer aliasing. I think the reasons are annoying. In academic research, nobody cares about education. The big universities that you think of as education powerhouses like Stanford, MIT, CMU, are all at heart research universities. Their faculty were not hired because…
Re: Programming is not math
#20Again this? It's been run up and down on Twitter. Effectively: a maths education is a great IQ test. If I was hiring a press agent, I'd still ask math questions. E: "I think this is great. I was always interested in computers as a kid but was awful in math." When I was a kid I was intermittently good and bad at maths, and hit a low point in high school trigonometry. Different teachers, different styles. I still "grew…
> We don't tell people they can be bad at talking. The brain evolved to communicate effectively with others. It did not evolve to manipulate symbols in a logical way. We can do it (some of us rather well) since the brain is still quite flexible. But it may account for the difference.