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The Benefits of Failing at French

nytimes.com

31–40 of 158 posts

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#31
post #23

I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn. Ridiculous amounts of exceptions to every single rule, dozens of tenses (which no one ever uses), lack of general structure, arbitrary genders, it's got it all. My personal piece of advice to anyone: don't waste your time learning French, it's a dying language. Go for Spanish if you need a latin language, it's at least used in Spain, the United…

Compared to, say, Russian or Ukrainian French is really not that complicated. It also has way less "exceptions to every single rule" than English. You should choose a language based on your goals, not "how many countries use it" (and even by that metric French would still be really high up). For example, if you ever want to work in Canada knowing French would help you a lot more than knowing Spanish.

>>if you ever want to work in Canada knowing French would help you a lot more than knowing Spanish.

Only if you want to work for the federal government or in the decidedly non dynamic province of Quebec.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#32
First I'll address the point about cognitive testing found in the article. "So to reassure myself that nothing was amiss, just before tackling French I took a cognitive assessment called CNS Vital Signs, recommended by a psychologist friend. The results were anything but reassuring: I scored below average for my age group in nearly all of the categories, notably landing in the bottom 10th percentile on the composite memory test and in the lowest 5 percent on the visual memory test." And later the author writes, "After a year of struggling with the language, I retook the cognitive assessment, and the results shocked me. My scores had skyrocketed, placing me above average in seven of 10 categories, and average in the other three. My verbal memory score leapt from the bottom half to the 88th — the 88th! — percentile and my visual memory test shot from the bottom 5th percentile to the 50th. Studying a language had been like drinking from a mental fountain of youth." An alternative explanation is that the author enjoyed a practice effect from taking the test more than once, and didn't necessarily gain much from his effort to learn French. To tease out which explanation makes more sense, we would have to know more about score stability ("reliability" in the psychometric sense) of the CNS Vital Signs test, and what validation studies have show about practice effects from repeated test-taking on that test.

I grew up as a monolingual native speaker of General American English in the heartland of that dialect in the upper Midwest of the United States. My first foreign language instruction in school occurred in the fourth grade of elementary school. My school district was very unusual among American school districts of that era in having mandatory German classes each week in fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, promoted and developed by a school district employee who was a refugee from Germany. So everyone I went to elementary school with had early exposure to foreign language learning--at least early compared to most other American school pupils.

I studied more German in junior high, moving to another school district in ninth grade that didn't offer German at all in junior high, even though that state (Wisconsin) has a higher percentage of German-descended persons than any other state in the United States. In tenth grade I moved back to my home town in Minnesota, and took one more year of high school German, which I bombed at after the time off occasioned by my move out of state. The following year in eleventh grade I started taking Russian, which went more smoothly for me, in part because German grammar got me ready for Russian grammar, and in part because the teacher was more kindly and more engaging and I had classmates in Russian class who were highly motivated to learn languages and shared their love of languages with me.

I went into university as an intending Russian major, hoping to take Chinese on the side as an elective course. But as soon as I started taking Chinese classes, I fell in love with that language--no declensions of nouns, no conjugation of verbs, and mostly indication of grammar by word order, as in English--and eventually switched my major course to Chinese when I had to formally declare a major and dropped taking Russian classes after a while. Chinese is of course especially challenging when it comes to achieving full literacy. (Chinese is plenty challenging for native speakers of the spoken language to achieve full literacy in the Chinese Han character writing system.) But I persisted, and enjoyed along the way learning about methods of language study from the writings of John DeFrancis, the dean of teachers of Chinese language to a whole generation of American students.

As I left the United States for a first stay overseas, with a university degree in Chinese language, I could read a book in Modern Standard Chinese reasonably comfortably and could also read some of the classic texts in Literary Chinese, but I could barely keep up with a live Chinese conversation. Landing in Taiwan in 1982, I had a headache soon after I arrived, and it was immensely gratifying to be able to go to the corner drugstore and say, "I would like to buy aspirin" and be understood well enough to get what I wanted. That relieved my headache even more than taking the medicine. Before I had left, I had spoken to two different Americans who had each spent a year living in Taiwan after two years of studying Chinese in the United States. They gave me what seemed like very contradictory descriptions of how they were able to get along linguistically in Taiwan with that much background in Chinese. One said, "It was great. As soon as I got of the plane I found out I could use my Chinese to talk to people." The other said, "It was terrible. For the first six months I was there I could hardly understand a thing that people were saying around me." I found out that they were BOTH correct, as I could communicate my needs, when I had them, especially around local people who were used to meeting American students, but I had the worst time for the longest time really understanding radio broadcasting or live conversation. I was very gratified when I could first listen through the full weather forecast on the radio and understand every word and phrase--months after arrival.

I have studied other languages, both "dead" classical languages and living languages from various language families. Every language on earth has purely arbitrary features that make it differ from other languages, and what makes a language "easy" or hard is mostly resemblance to a language a learner already knows. (German felt very easy indeed to me after I had studied Russian and classical Greek, for example, even though it had seemed hard earlier.) Young people in Taiwan used to tell me that Japanese is "easy" in about the same way that many Americans say Spanish is easy. There are many opportunities to learn each language in each of those places, but to learn them well is not particularly easy, really.

My experiences as a language learner have turned into advice I share on the World Wide Web[1] and here on Hacker News.[2] Fortunately, there are a lot of tips (one could say hacks) that help learners learn foreign languages better. I admire the many participants on Hacker News who participate while using English as a second language. That is not easy. Few Americans could participate in online discussion in any language other than English. I'm not sure I think that studying Chinese and other languages I've studied really strengthened my cognition, but I am glad for the experiences I had overseas and think that even Americans who will never leave the United States should make the effort to learn at least one foreign human language.

[1] http://learninfreedom.org/languagebooks.html

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6302276#up_6302816

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#34

I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn. Ridiculous amounts of exceptions to every single rule, dozens of tenses (which no one ever uses), lack of general structure, arbitrary genders, it's got it all. My personal piece of advice to anyone: don't waste your time learning French, it's a dying language. Go for Spanish if you need a latin language, it's at least used in Spain, the United…

> I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn.

According to this classification, French is actually in the easiest category of foreign languages to learn, for an English speaker:

http://www.effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/lang...

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#35
post #11

Dr. Carlos do Amaral Freire has supposedly learnt 115 languages. I find that difficult to comprehend. http://thelinguistblogger.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/the-wisdo...

Any such claim implies a much lower level of proficiency for "learnt a language" than most of us are referring to when we say that someone has learned a language fluently.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#36

Short of cauterizing your own genitals, nothing seems like it would change who you are like speaking in an-other's language. Blech, I'd rather wear someone else's underwear, no thanks, I'll take the 12 credits but no way am I retaining anything. "Well, science says you lose the ability to learn languages as you get older." Oh, did NPR just interview TED? Dummies in other countries and dummies in the CIA learn as adul…

I love TLP but losing your accent is easier said than done. I started learning English when I was a few years old and I've lived in the US for 22 years speaking English 99% of the time. My German accent is still clearly there. I'm not sure what it would take at this point but it's not something that happens easily. I listen to the way other people pronounce words but hearing your own accent is hard. Interestingly, my…

At least for some people it's easy to pick up accents (even for languages she doesn't actually speak, she just speaks gibberish): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybcvlxivscw

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#37
The author hits an important point. I'm a native French speaker and speak to anglophones trying to improve their french everyday and the overwhelming majority gets distracted if they don't get the noun genders right, pick the right verb tenses and all sorts of things like that. They hesitate mid-sentence trying to remember the rules and get it perfectly instead of just saying "Tommy hitted me" like in the article. As soon as they start hesitating, they freeze and switch back to English.

I can't emphasize how important it is to just keep going. The point of language is to get the message across. The details like verbs and genders will come with practice and to practice, you need to use the positive feedback loop that getting the message across generates.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#38
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a native English speaker (born and raised in the US). In school -- over a decade ago -- I took six semesters of French courses, and I've done some immersive trips to Quebec (which admittedly is a different dialect, but at least helps a bit). Last week I was in Paris. Even with a refresh on grammar and vocabulary, I struggled a lot to communicate in French. The most difficult thing, for me, is the sentence struct…

> For example, in English I might ask "Where is (X)" or "Is this street (X)". In French, I need to flip those around to "(X), where is it" or "Here, this is (X), yes?" I don't know where you got your French lessons but you've been mislead. Both "Where is (X)" and "Is this street (X)" translated directly are more correct than your alternatives: "Ou est (X)" "Est-ce que c'est la rue (X)" > "Thanks of not to disturb" Ra…

"(X), où est-ce"/"Ici, c'est la rue (X)"/etc. is the form I've consistently heard from native French speakers.

And the point was not to say that the French is un-understandable, but that the structure and the use of infinitive form is alien to an English speaker. It does not naturally occur to an English speaker to use infinitives the way they're often used in French.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#39
post #31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to, say, Russian or Ukrainian French is really not that complicated. It also has way less "exceptions to every single rule" than English. You should choose a language based on your goals, not "how many countries use it" (and even by that metric French would still be really high up). For example, if you ever want to work in Canada knowing French would help you a lot more than knowing Spanish.

>>if you ever want to work in Canada knowing French would help you a lot more than knowing Spanish. Only if you want to work for the federal government or in the decidedly non dynamic province of Quebec.

New Brunswick is officially a bilingual province. There are lots of opportunities for bilingual (French/English) speakers in Ontario as well.

Re: The Benefits of Failing at French

#40
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love TLP but losing your accent is easier said than done. I started learning English when I was a few years old and I've lived in the US for 22 years speaking English 99% of the time. My German accent is still clearly there. I'm not sure what it would take at this point but it's not something that happens easily. I listen to the way other people pronounce words but hearing your own accent is hard. Interestingly, my…

I think TLP's accent advice falls squarely into the "fake it until you make it" category - like becoming a confident presenter by impersonating somebody confident when you get on stage. It's not that if you try hard your accent will go away, it's more that you (consciously) do an impression of the accent you're learning. So if you're studying German you go full Ahhhnold. I didn't read that TLP column until I was most…

This is a big stumbling block for Swedes trying to speak Danish (which is a very similar language grammatically, but pronounced quite differently). Going "all in" reminds many people too much of Swedish comedians making fun of how Danish sounds, so they worry they'll sound mocking if they speak like that. So, many will try for a less "exaggerated" Danish accent instead, which ends up not sounding very Danish at all. Doing the Swedish-comedian-impersonating-Danish accent is actually a decent place to start, but it just sounds wrong and borderline offensive to Swedish ears to try it.
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