Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft • Hacker News Board

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#101

Post by greendestiny » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 4:41 AM UTC

bkjelden wrote: post #57

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #18

Any company that has been around for as long as Microsoft, has a huge amount of dead weight in its mid-level management. I mean people whose main skill is mastery of the internal political process. Lest people think I'm singling out Microsoft specifically, this same problem is present at Google as well, but is less of a problem because Google has not been around long enough to pick up the same amount of dead weight p…

As someone currently with the company, this description of some mid-level management really resonates with me. I am incredibly skeptical, however, that any round of layoffs attempting to get rid of these people will have a good hit rate. Plenty of really talented engineers and engineering managers will end up losing their jobs too. I a lot of my older peers from university went to work for IBM for a couple years righ…

When whom to layoff is a political decision, layoffs will just compound the problem.

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#102

Post by potatolicious » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 4:42 AM UTC

andyjdavis wrote: post #70

asdfologist wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, the redundancy argument could be used to justify laying off dead weight.

Certainly lay offs due to post acquisition redundancy would seem less likely to generate lawsuits compared to lay offs due to dead weight regardless of the true reason.

AFAIK they pulled this during the '08 crisis also. I heard from a few people on the inside that, while the public reason for the layoff was to trim headcount in response to economic downturn, it was more of a house cleaning.

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#103

Post by tdicola » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 4:44 AM UTC

PaulMest wrote: post #88

Context: I was at Microsoft during the first and only round of layoffs in company history (2009). My job was not impacted at all by the layoffs so I speaking from my memory of what was happening around me. In fact, I was working on an incubation project that was one of the few ideas that was green-lighted with a pretty sizable team that year. My perspective: From a company perspective, eliminating 5000 people in 2009…

The other botched part of that 2009 'downsizing' was that everyone who was left didn't get a bonus, raise, etc. right as silicon valley was firing up and other big & small tech companies were hiring like crazy. A year or so later and attrition was _massive_. Things got so bad there was an emergency ~10% raise for everyone in engineering, and large bonuses for mid-level folks. The controversial review system that was barely a year old was scrapped entirely and reverted to the old system. It was very, very weird and seemed like a move of desperation.

For anyone left after this round of layoffs, it might be worth looking around to greener pastures come August when reviews roll out. If you're in a strong position I strongly suspect the company would bend over backwards to try to keep you around amid the mess.

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#104

Post by swalsh » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 4:46 AM UTC

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #18

Any company that has been around for as long as Microsoft, has a huge amount of dead weight in its mid-level management. I mean people whose main skill is mastery of the internal political process. Lest people think I'm singling out Microsoft specifically, this same problem is present at Google as well, but is less of a problem because Google has not been around long enough to pick up the same amount of dead weight p…

Its good in theory, but in practice it doesn't work. Those guys who mastered the political process. They don't get fired. Not getting fired is what they do. Thats the thing they're really good at.

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#105

Post by clarkm » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 4:48 AM UTC

CMCDragonkai wrote: post #51

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #18

Any company that has been around for as long as Microsoft, has a huge amount of dead weight in its mid-level management. I mean people whose main skill is mastery of the internal political process. Lest people think I'm singling out Microsoft specifically, this same problem is present at Google as well, but is less of a problem because Google has not been around long enough to pick up the same amount of dead weight p…

That's what Enron did and General Electric under Jack Welch. Up or out strategy. If you put the incentive under delivering something of value too much, you end up with people lying. Sometimes it's not just about star individuals, but star teams.

It seems to be working out well for McKinsey.

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#106

Post by walterbell » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 4:51 AM UTC

jarsin wrote: post #92

walterbell wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competent people need to know the political basics, it's like defensive driving. http://www.manager-tools.com/2013/04/politics-101-chapter-3-... http://www.manager-tools.com/2013/05/politics-101-chapter-3-...

This is good stuff. Thanks for the links. I have seen many times and even done the withdraw and become cynical that they talk about. In my case I hated the entire company so it was a bigger issue. I will say though that when companies lay off competent people one thing I see time and time again the competent people that survived (who probably are better at the politics) always abandon ship. Its very demoralizing watc…

One remedy for this in the software world would be to publish detailed credits for key employee names/roles associated with software releases, something that is done in the film industry where people care very much about where their name appears in the opening and closing credits.

Great teams are quite rare and short-lived. One specific version of a software product can be fantastic due to the short-lived team that designed and built that one release. You see this clearly with hardware, e.g. the 2012 version of device model XYZ earns a higher price in the resale market. It would be great if the teams building these positive exceptions could be recognized, as they scatter and reform across companies.

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#107

Post by randomfool » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 4:51 AM UTC

CMCDragonkai wrote: post #51

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #18

Any company that has been around for as long as Microsoft, has a huge amount of dead weight in its mid-level management. I mean people whose main skill is mastery of the internal political process. Lest people think I'm singling out Microsoft specifically, this same problem is present at Google as well, but is less of a problem because Google has not been around long enough to pick up the same amount of dead weight p…

That's what Enron did and General Electric under Jack Welch. Up or out strategy. If you put the incentive under delivering something of value too much, you end up with people lying. Sometimes it's not just about star individuals, but star teams.

The DevDiv org at Microsoft definitely had an up or out strategy, I believe there either was not an upper-limit or it was level 65. My understanding is that Google has an up or out as well, which tops out at level 5 (lower than Microsofts).

The issue with the up-or-out at Microsoft was that it was incredibly hard to hire better devs than the ones being forced out (counter-argument- you are supposed to be hiring on future potential). This was seriously compounded by the amount of legacy code- new hires either wanted nothing to do with it, or wanted to replace it en-masse without understanding the requirements.

The up or out became yet another puzzle piece during the review cycle- if you did not give someone a promo then you would be pressured to cut them loose.

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#108

Post by walterbell » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 5:00 AM UTC

peterjancelis wrote: post #73

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #18

Any company that has been around for as long as Microsoft, has a huge amount of dead weight in its mid-level management. I mean people whose main skill is mastery of the internal political process. Lest people think I'm singling out Microsoft specifically, this same problem is present at Google as well, but is less of a problem because Google has not been around long enough to pick up the same amount of dead weight p…

This is why I believe in a Semco type culture where every team member receives a cut of the profits and there is a peer review process of who gets to join / stay in the team. It's the most realistic way a profitably franchise can avoid taking in the political rent seekers. What you spend more on profit share you probably make back on cost savings, and at the very least it buys you a more happy, productive workforce.

Would you recommend a reference on Semco's approach?

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#109

Post by randomfool » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 5:03 AM UTC

PaulMest wrote: post #88

Context: I was at Microsoft during the first and only round of layoffs in company history (2009). My job was not impacted at all by the layoffs so I speaking from my memory of what was happening around me. In fact, I was working on an incubation project that was one of the few ideas that was green-lighted with a pretty sizable team that year. My perspective: From a company perspective, eliminating 5000 people in 2009…

The whole RIF combined with headcount freeze was a massive screwup IMHO.

My hope this time around is that they free up way more IC dev and UX roles and RIF middle management and good chunks of PM and test. There are too many leads and managers afraid of becoming an IC and having to do work (instead of playing politics). Give them plenty of opportunities to contribute as IC and if they do not want that, let them go.

Re: Large Round of Layoffs Expected at Microsoft

#110

Post by jmspring » Thu, Jul 17, 2014, 5:04 AM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #27

tphan wrote: post #10

I knew Microsoft was on the way out but I didn't know the situation was so bad. Hopefully those who lost their jobs will find a place at Google or Apple.

Layoffs are a sign that a company has been struggling, or has been slowing, or has grown disproportionately in personell, but that someone is doing something that probably needs to be done. It is not always the solution, but it is also not a sign of ultimate doom.

Sometimes there is overlap, sometimes there is extra baggage, sometimes there is redundancy...What there is and what is left depends on how things are handled.

Sometimes the recurring "let the bottom 5% go" that companies like Cisco do might actually make sense.