how hard is to add numbers?
Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
91–100 of 100 posts
Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks - this is exactly my point.
But do you even trust the compiler they use? Computers you don't totally control are inherently untrustworthy: http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html For most things it doesn't matter enough, but for deciding who gets to run the country, I think we need a higher standard.
I know everyone likes to cite that paper whenever they can, but it's not really relevant here. In this hypothetical, they give you the source but they compile it to binary. They do not provide you with the compiler or its source. The compiler can be malicious, but there's no need to hide its maliciousness - they don't even prove that the software running is in any way derived from the source they've given you! It would be a giant leap forward to have to design against KT-level shenanigans. The whole process can currently be subverted with CS 101-level jiggery pokery.
Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
#93how hard is to add numbers?
Imagine if the principa mathmatica was decided upon by democracy.
That hard.
Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can talk about Ireland, as I've been an election observer there. The way we do it is that ballot boxes are locked and sealed with tamper-evident seals after a polling station has closed. Elections observers; including representatives from the political parties may request to add their own seals. In some particularly contentious districts this is done, but for the most part people are happy with the official seals.…
I appreciate the thorough response and it does sound better than what I had envisaged. However, there is still no way for me as an individual to know for certain that my vote has been counted. The best I can do is trust in the physical security practices surrounding the ballot box and the honesty of the volunteers involved. And even with a margin of error of I encourage you to watch the tech talk when you have a spar…
Full, transparency across time makes it easy to buy people's votes, or punish people for voting the wrong way. The moment I can check that my vote was counted, and was counted accurately, then my boss/landlord/wife/friend could pressure me into showing them said record.
The fact that I can vote very differently from what is socially acceptable in my social group, and there is no way for them to know is a feature, not a bug.
Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
#95Honestly, the only way to prevent election rigging is to associate each vote with a key, make the key-vote-district database public and give each voter a copy of their vote keys.
If each vote is verifiable to the voter and the whole database is public, then we can have independent analysis done on the votes and no vote rigging is possible, except for creating additional fake keys.
And we can fix that problem simply by making the keys associated with a voter registration, which requires an ID. Same way we do now. Granted, that's still limited by the issues with paper ballots.
Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
I appreciate the thorough response and it does sound better than what I had envisaged. However, there is still no way for me as an individual to know for certain that my vote has been counted. The best I can do is trust in the physical security practices surrounding the ballot box and the honesty of the volunteers involved. And even with a margin of error of I encourage you to watch the tech talk when you have a spar…
Full, transparency across time makes it easy to buy people's votes, or punish people for voting the wrong way. The moment I can check that my vote was counted, and was counted accurately, then my boss/landlord/wife/friend could pressure me into showing them said record. The fact that I can vote very differently from what is socially acceptable in my social group, and there is no way for them to know is a feature, not…
Watch the tech talk. It's possible to prove to yourself that your vote was counted correctly and simultaneously be unable to prove it to others.
Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
At Ruxcon last year there was a very interesting talk by an electoral systems researcher (I can't recall her name). She went through a number of electronic voting systems, and they all suck. Some more than others. The only case where she found a system that was close to acceptable was in a crypto organisation where everyone was highly technically fluent in the system. Certainly not transferable to the general public.…
>in Australia, it has about the best system possible [...] in terms of verifying the count: an AEC official does the counting, and the major parties volunteer scrutineers to challenge ambiguous voting slips That's actually how it works in Italy as well: each poll station has an official "commission" and party-nominated "observers" who can challenge slip by slip. It's probably the fairest system one can devise, althou…
Correct. I have done scrutineering in Australian elections. It is fun as you get the local results before anyone else. Also you see the comments people write on the papers
Eg Youse bastards r al liers!
Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
#98Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "I am advised that publication of the software could leave the voting system open to hacking or manipulation". Certainly reminds me of this xkcd: https://xkcd.com/463/ It sounds like security...
I hadn't seen that one :) Someone above mentions its VB6 with embedded SQL Server upgraded from COBOL [1]. Can sort of see how they don't want anyone looking at it now. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8039958
It seems to be an ongoing misconception in the public, that part of good security is obstification. Know of any simple clear articles I could point people to when they make these sort of ("because Hackers might see") claims?
Re: Software used to count Australian Senate votes is a “trade secret”
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
Imagine if the principa mathmatica was decided upon by democracy. That hard.
still i cannot comprehend that, the software simply has to measure the number of votes...
forgive me for being snarky. The real challenge is surviving voter manipulation.
Parties would intercept communication, and compromise machines.
Voting machines have to remain secure, despite opponents having physical access to the machine, and currently security doctrine is basically "Once your opponent has physical access, you lose."