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European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

stop-ttip.org

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Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#61

Post by sentenza »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #52
sentenza wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no reason to distrust the whole of the EU just because they don't reject Karel De Gucht. After all, if Belgium stands behind him, the EU can't do much. If that isn't satisfying for you, I recommend distrusting the EU Commission. That's what I do. Our best hope is to shoot this thing down when it has to be ratified by the EU parliament. During the last legislative period, the parliament has shown that it can and…

I can think of plenty of other reasons to distrust the EU. The EU parliament is the only aspect that is partially on the side of the people. But on the other end there's the EU Commission, the council of ministers and the entire corrupt EU bureaucracy that is beyond any form of oversight. Parliament is the least powerful element of the EU, and any positive news that reaches HN from the EU is usually about parliament…

> The EU itself is a backdoor for treaties like TTIP and CETA. Without it, such treaties would have to go through the democratic processes of sovereign nations, which, although far from perfect, are most certainly more transparent and democratic than the EU. (At least, that was the case until the EU started including blatantly corrupt nations.)

Uhm... no? If there was no EU, we'd now have a lot of bilateral agreements between the US and single European states, with each individual agreement consisting of 90% what the US policy makers want and 10% what the country's policy makers want.

The only reason that this takes so long is because the EU is actually large enough to put up some resistance. Every individual country, including my native Germany, would have been steamrollered by the US.

Just look at the bilateral treaties that EUropean countries have with the US. They are always really lopsided, like that one where the UK extradites its own citizens to the US, but the US doesn't reciprocate.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#62

Post by sentenza »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #43
sentenza wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no reason to distrust the whole of the EU just because they don't reject Karel De Gucht. After all, if Belgium stands behind him, the EU can't do much. If that isn't satisfying for you, I recommend distrusting the EU Commission. That's what I do. Our best hope is to shoot this thing down when it has to be ratified by the EU parliament. During the last legislative period, the parliament has shown that it can and…

Nobody of the public in Belgium stands behind him, if you understand dutch go to the reactions page of an(y) article about him of a popular Belgian newspaper: http://goo.gl/duj8ml (can't do it with Google Translate (the comments use Ajax), i haven't seen 1 positive reaction ! ) The citizens in a lot of EU countries have massively protested, that's why it got rejected, in Belgium, none of the protests even came in the…

I'm in no way defending Karel De Gucht, believe me.

The situation you describe raises some questions, though. If he is this unpopular and disliked in Belgium, how on earth did he manage to become Belgium's representative in the Commission, holding a key post (Commissioner for Trade)?

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#63

Post by happyscrappy »

HSO wrote: post #53

TTIP is anti-liberal, anti-democratic, and corrupt. In other words, in the best traditions of post-Bush America. Please don't export this shit to Europe.

Pretending that EU leaders have no culpability in this is a great way to ensure US dominance over Europe.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#64

Post by leccine »

ohitsdom wrote: post #60
leccine wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"European economy has barely grown for 15 years and these agreements are a welcome development." Good, keep it this way. We don't need more economic growth because the 90% of it goes straight to billionaires and the average worker don't benefit from it anyways. What we really need is an economy that does not rely on growth and mass production of toxic waste.

Are you arguing the benefits of a stagnant economy? I don't understand how that could be a good thing. The economy needs to at least match growth of the population, or else that means you have unemployment or lower wages. But if that's what you want just to stick it to the billionaires...

I am arguing that for an average person there is no difference between 3% growth and 15% growth, but for mother Earth there is and I don't care about corporate CEOs (less than 1% of the global population) and the Rokafela bros. Sorry for my ignorance but I think an average person and our planet is more important than few fat bankers and their CEO friends. I know, I am a bad person.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#65

Post by avz »

leccine wrote: post #64
ohitsdom wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing the benefits of a stagnant economy? I don't understand how that could be a good thing. The economy needs to at least match growth of the population, or else that means you have unemployment or lower wages. But if that's what you want just to stick it to the billionaires...

I am arguing that for an average person there is no difference between 3% growth and 15% growth, but for mother Earth there is and I don't care about corporate CEOs (less than 1% of the global population) and the Rokafela bros. Sorry for my ignorance but I think an average person and our planet is more important than few fat bankers and their CEO friends. I know, I am a bad person.

Economic growth does not necessarily imply destruction of the environment. The growth rate refers to the rate at which value of products and services in an economy grows. The aggregate environmental footprint may in fact shrink or grow slower than the GDP. I can think of three reasons why there could be a gap between GDP growth and environmental footprint growth:

Services. Most of the value in a modern economy lies in services whose footprint is a lot lower than manufacturing.

Software. Even in manufacturing increasing part of the value comes from non-material components like software and network services.

Recycling. Recycling and downcycling lower environmental footprint by reducing our need for raw materials.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#66

Post by PythonicAlpha »

ohitsdom wrote: post #60
leccine wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"European economy has barely grown for 15 years and these agreements are a welcome development." Good, keep it this way. We don't need more economic growth because the 90% of it goes straight to billionaires and the average worker don't benefit from it anyways. What we really need is an economy that does not rely on growth and mass production of toxic waste.

Are you arguing the benefits of a stagnant economy? I don't understand how that could be a good thing. The economy needs to at least match growth of the population, or else that means you have unemployment or lower wages. But if that's what you want just to stick it to the billionaires...

Growth and more growth is only needed, because of our interest based money system.

Any gardener can tell you, that unlimited (and exponential) growth is not possible. But economists still believe in it.

Some (very soon) day, all the resources of this planet will be wasted -- and humanity will have destroyed itself -- just because of economic theories and to make billionaires from millionaires.

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#67

Post by NicoJuicy »

sentenza wrote: post #62
NicoJuicy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody of the public in Belgium stands behind him, if you understand dutch go to the reactions page of an(y) article about him of a popular Belgian newspaper: http://goo.gl/duj8ml (can't do it with Google Translate (the comments use Ajax), i haven't seen 1 positive reaction ! ) The citizens in a lot of EU countries have massively protested, that's why it got rejected, in Belgium, none of the protests even came in the…

I'm in no way defending Karel De Gucht, believe me. The situation you describe raises some questions, though. If he is this unpopular and disliked in Belgium, how on earth did he manage to become Belgium's representative in the Commission, holding a key post (Commissioner for Trade)?

I've been thinking the same thing, i guess he left belgian politics on the right time for the EU.

(He was being investigated after he went in the EU)

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#68

Post by PythonicAlpha »

avz wrote: post #65
leccine wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am arguing that for an average person there is no difference between 3% growth and 15% growth, but for mother Earth there is and I don't care about corporate CEOs (less than 1% of the global population) and the Rokafela bros. Sorry for my ignorance but I think an average person and our planet is more important than few fat bankers and their CEO friends. I know, I am a bad person.

Economic growth does not necessarily imply destruction of the environment. The growth rate refers to the rate at which value of products and services in an economy grows. The aggregate environmental footprint may in fact shrink or grow slower than the GDP. I can think of three reasons why there could be a gap between GDP growth and environmental footprint growth: Services. Most of the value in a modern economy lies i…

That is just a theory. What do we have in practice:

- Some years ago, you could (yourself) exchange the battery of your mobile phone -- today, many mobile phones will be thrown away, when the battery is finished or any other part does not work any more. Todays "highest tech" industries are environmental nightmares. And now they even build tablet PCs that way, that should replace normal computers (see MS Surface).

- A lot more products are just build for fast consumption and recycling is still not in focus of most manufacturers. Instead, the waste from Europe is exported to Africa.

What I say: I am sure, that it would be possible, but with our todays ideology of growth for the sake of more and more profits and less and less regulation, that is just not "compatible".

Re: European Citizens’ Initiative against TTIP and CETA

#70

Post by avz »

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #66
ohitsdom wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you arguing the benefits of a stagnant economy? I don't understand how that could be a good thing. The economy needs to at least match growth of the population, or else that means you have unemployment or lower wages. But if that's what you want just to stick it to the billionaires...

Growth and more growth is only needed, because of our interest based money system. Any gardener can tell you, that unlimited (and exponential) growth is not possible. But economists still believe in it. Some (very soon) day, all the resources of this planet will be wasted -- and humanity will have destroyed itself -- just because of economic theories and to make billionaires from millionaires.

Growth is needed to lift people out of poverty, create jobs and opportunities and support wider range of social projects from infrastructure to space exploration.

The burden we're putting on the resources of this planet is indeed very high and we must work to reduce it. However, GDP growth with shrinking burden on the environment is achievable by generating more value on a smaller environmental footprint (see my other comment, in short: we can increase GDP by growing the relative aggregate value of services, software and products made of recycled materials).

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